Fezcast - The Saracens Supporters Podcast
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Fezcast - The Saracens Supporters Podcast
S5 E22: Heaven First, Devon Later
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This week on the show, Duncan, Alex, Jez and Barry talk shop...
There's the big positive, with Saracens Women's brilliant away win at Quins while rivals lost ground.
Negatives, positives, and the general bigger picture are then discussed from the defeat at Sandy Park, with the next league fixture not for another 4 years (approximately)
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[Disclaimer: The Fezcast is brought to you on behalf of the Saracens Supporters Association and is not an official product of Saracens Ltd]
Title Music (from Season 4): "Herald" by This Winter Machine
You're listening to the Fez Cast, a Saracens Fans podcast bringing you the independent and unhinged views of the voices in our heads, as well as those of our special guests. To get in touch with us, find the Fezcast on social media and listen to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube and Thanks for tuning in. Enjoy this week's show. Listening to the Fezcast!
SPEAKER_04Well, welcome everybody. We've got a cornycopia of Richard's here tonight in the form of myself, of course, Barry, Jez and Alex. So welcome all. Barry, you've been in uh Enemy Country until uh this afternoon. Is it Devon in January high up on your list of uh attractive places to go to?
SPEAKER_02Well, it was uh it was pretty wet, but uh well you can you can you can take that in it whichever way you like really. But uh yeah, an amazing clap of thunder at 4 30 this morning would shook the hotel I was staying in, but uh apparently it wasn't an invasion.
SPEAKER_04The Earth moved, did it?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_04Um I mean I call it enemy territory. I mean I I've been to Exeter many times and caught the bus out from the town out to the ground, uh packed full of Exeter supporters with my my Saris shirt on, and they're actually a a very friendly mob. It's really only Mr. Baxter Baxter and Toadface who are completely beyond the pale down there, I found.
SPEAKER_03I think if you slip them um, you know, if you go and give them a high six, they seem to be alright. I don't know, you know.
SPEAKER_02All I could really say is everyone we spoke to inside the ground on the way and in the pubs afterwards was uh was was very good to us. So uh that's it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, they are generally. But we'll come back to the men's game later because we'll start off by concentrating on on the women's game. And Alex, absolutely huge results at the weekend. Bristol getting beaten, Exeter getting beaten, and us having a five-point win over Harlequins couldn't really have gone better, could it?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that was great. It does make me a bit nervous to go to E-ling this week um because I'm less confident that we'll beat them. I think we can do it. I think we were just in control for most of the game. We didn't get loads and loads of tries, but it was a good margin in the end. And yeah, we just didn't really let them have the ball.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we'll come back to that because it really was a good performance, and uh we're we're putting together a string of good performances now, but all of a sudden, we get a five-point win over Exeter. All of the other top teams have got to play each other, so someone's gonna drop points. So, touch wood, fingers crossed, everything everything you want. That that top two place is looking more and more possible.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think for definite the the important thing is momentum, isn't it? And we talked about it enough times in the in the fest cast over the over the years. When you get on a roll of momentum, then it makes a huge amount of difference. And and I think what's interesting, I don't know whether you agree with me here, Alex, as well, is that ever since the loss against Loughborough, pressure seems to come off the team a little bit, and they're playing with a bit more freedom, in so much as that they can perhaps say, Okay, we've had our bad result, let's knuckle down a little bit, but you know, we've made it difficult for ourselves, or let's take the pressure off and and just play some great rugby, which they have done.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think that we can any kind of space we had to drop points, we lost that against Loughborough. So they just know that if we don't get the points, then there's a chance of not getting top two, and maybe even not getting a semi-final. So that importance has really ramped up in these last few games, and they just seem to be playing some great rugby.
SPEAKER_04What it seems to me, and and it's interesting to draw parallels with the men's team, because that game yesterday was almost completely error-free by Saracens, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think in the last 20 minutes we started to make some more errors, um, so maybe we need to look at that with our substitutes coming on, but apart from that, it was really good.
SPEAKER_04But it is interesting to speculate exactly what is it, Alex Oxtabry, what has been done? Because going back to the game against Quinns, albeit it was played in a blowing gale, we were making loads of mistakes, and there were many games where we were, and suddenly we've really tightened it up, and it makes all the difference, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and I think some of that will just be cohesion as a squad and having more time together. When we played Quinn, we there wasn't that much between WXV and Quinn. Lots of players hadn't really trained with the squad, especially some of the newer players coming in. So I think partly is just having time together as a squad as an uninterrupted block where everyone can just gel together and it seems to work well for us.
SPEAKER_04That's a really good point. But of course, the more they go on, the more we get away from the world uh the disruption of the World Cup and all of that, or what was happening before. But Jez, one thing that was great to see, and again, a comparison to the men's team, were the kind of running lines that, for instance, Lottie Sharp was running. It was a kind of inventive, fast running back play that we're aching to see the men do.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's not difficult, is it? And I mean, it's what we talked about last week in relation to the reaction to to the to the loss against Castro. You want players coming from deep, and we'll talk about this when we talk about the men's game against Chiefs because I think there was that development in the men's game. But yeah, you're right. Watch what the women were doing. Runs were coming not only from deep, but there were options. So if you were the pivot player, whether that be a standoff or or or scrum half, you had options either side of you. And I mean, I remember going back to being coached when I first started playing the game, and when I coached the game, what you want is you want options, and you want options coming from different directions, but more importantly, you want them coming at pace and with um determination, and you got that from the women full stop. I mean, you know, you saw some absolutely amazing bursts from forwards and backs going through gaps that they created because they were coming from depth and because they had put doubt in other players' minds because there are other options. Defenders didn't know whether to go this way or the up way. And I mean, if you're doing the blitz defense like a lot of teams are doing, you know, if there's a bit of doubt in your mind, it puts you on your back foot straight away. And Queens have got a good defence. They they seem to not know at points in that game where the rapier move was coming from.
SPEAKER_04That fourth try, though, I think sums up everything you're saying. Um, is there going to be a better try this season than that fourth try, which was coast to coast, wasn't it? Practically from our line, passing through the hands, left, right, and centre, and then over at the other end. Alex, have you seen a better try than that?
SPEAKER_05I don't think so. I think it was a team try. Um, very much everyone seemed to get their hands on the ball. Um we just kept working out. I think Elite Corrigan beating Ali Kordan um helped to start that. And once we'd broken through the defensive line, Quinn just couldn't seem to get their defence back quick enough to reset every time we kept going.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, Elie Kelly, it's gonna be good to when England played to be able to support a team that she plays in because she is an exciting player to watch. But actually, we coached with her pretty well, didn't we?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and I think you know, Quinn's almost needed her try to kind of get on a bit, and I guess luckily for us, that didn't happen until almost half time. But yeah, she seems to have kind of been what the Quinn's team have built themselves around, and we managed to keep the threat uh contained quite well.
SPEAKER_04I mean, I mentioned Lottie Clapp had a fantastic game. Poppy Cleal as well was was right at her best, I thought, like uh a sledgehammer.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and I think you know, it seems that not being in the England squad has just made her play even better and kind of renewed the fire in her to kind of keep putting her hand up and how um John Mitchell can keep ignoring her, I don't know.
SPEAKER_04No, that's right. And uh I wonder whether the World Cup is driving her on because she really was she was fit, wasn't she? She played the whole game, she was up with the play all the time, and as I say, was smashing them to pieces, Jez.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, and I think I mean to go back to what Alex has said there about the World Cup and everything, I think, you know, at the end of the day, there are very, very good back row players in the England setup. You know, it's not Poppy Cleal is a great player, we know that, but she's not got a God-given right to be in that's in that side. But what she is doing, and which is great to see because I'm not sure whether she's had that same commitment in the past, perhaps when things haven't gone her way. At the moment, she's sat there saying, Well, look, you know, if you're not gonna pick me, you're not gonna pick me, John. But I'm gonna make it in the same way as Tom Willis has done to Steve Warfick, I'm gonna make that decision very, very difficult for you. And you know, all credit to Poppy for for rolling her sleeves up and and digging in and getting on with that.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. And the other standout player for me um was the Amelia McDougal. I mean, we lost Zoe Harrison. Uh, we talked about it last week. She she got clobbered in the last game, but she I I didn't feel she put a apart from perhaps the uh the kicks at goal, the conversion she didn't get, she didn't put a foot wrong.
SPEAKER_05Well, I think she organized the team really well, um, both defensively and in attack, um, which I think chose the experience she's gained in the last couple of years.
SPEAKER_04It's really not a problem when Zoe Harrison isn't there, is it?
SPEAKER_03No, I mean you you do rely somewhat on your forwards given, you know, rolling out the armchair and lighting up the cigar and handing over the glass of brandy. And you know, uh, without wishing to dismiss um her performance, if you get an armchair ride, it's all well and good. But you've still then, when you've got that armchair ride, you've got to exploit the opportunities you're given. And I think that's what she did brilliantly. It wasn't a case of that she was able to float through the game, she took the platform she got and drove the team from it and you know, was able to bring players on at huge pace incisively, looked at the right pass at the right time, whether that be a short pop or a longer, more expansive pass. She picked the right pass or the right kick from hand at the right time. And for for young kids, you know, and let's not forget, she is still only a young kid. I mean, so I think she's only a teenager still now. I mean, that's exceptional maturity to to be shown on the pitch, and you know, that that's great. And you know, going back to me playing as a forward, that's what you want to see. If you've got a platform, you then want to see your backs coming off going past you, so it's easier to get into support, as opposed to running backwards, which perhaps the men have had the problem in the recent weeks. They weren't because of they create a platform. Your 10 supplied the ball to somebody who's coming on at pace, and then the support run you need to make is all in front of you, the plays are all in front of you, and there's a forward. That's all you want from your backs um on the pitch.
SPEAKER_04Alex, was there anybody else we haven't mentioned who who really caught your eye? I mean, I know they were all good, but is there any but anyone in particular who stood out?
SPEAKER_05I think Rosie Gallagher stood out in her defensive efforts. She was constantly there at each rock, trying to counter arc, making the tackles, and just defensively she was really strong, um, which was important because Quins are a good team, and if we let them break the line, then they are likely to be sore.
SPEAKER_04She really was everywhere, wasn't she? I mean, she's she's not hard. She she's hard to miss because of that long blowing, flowing blonde hair and and and the size of her, but she was everywhere, shoring up the defence, as you say, and taking part in the attacks. Jez.
SPEAKER_03I think she does a very similar role to what Maro Toji does in particular the line outs, in that she is a physical specimen at that level. I mean, she's got the height, yeah, which you know is more obvious when it's the women because of the of the not the uniform, you know, but the the less of a difference in the physicality between players. Someone like that who disrupted a line out, and you know, the Queen's lineouts worked pretty well this season, but the line out they had some problems, and a lot of that was down to just Rosie Gulligan being there, being put in the air, messing things up. Even if they didn't win the ball, they messed things up, and then a big paw would come over the top or whatever. She was had a really, really spectacularly good game.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. Now the um the cameras were pointed at the empty, not on sale East End at Quinn's, but the commentators were talking a lot about how full the West End was. Alex, was that was that mainly Quinn's fans, or was there a good turnout of Saris?
SPEAKER_05There was a good turnout of Saracen's fans. Um, and there was also quite a lot of players who weren't playing. Um, Marley Packer, Jess Breach, Zoe Harrison, um Liana Vante was there as well. So I think there was a good uh turnout of Saracen fans. Um, there were a lot of Quinn's fans as well, but yeah, definitely quite a few Saracens fans.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, home or away, this this derby is really uh getting everybody's uh imagination and pulling in the big crowd for a women's game, which is great to see, isn't it? It's great, it's great to see uh a big crowd and a and a good atmosphere.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and I think it's important going into the World Cup that we kind of generate the engagement around the club games as well. Because it's all good saying we're gonna have these bigger tendencies for the World Cup, then it's about what happens after that, how do we sustain their interest?
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. Um, and that's why it's important that Saracens have some star players in the England team for the World Cup because hopefully the eyeballs will be on it, and then people will want to go and see those players play for their clubs. I mean you mentioned, looking forward to next week, you mentioned we go to Ealing Trail Finders, and you mentioned that that is now a tricky tie, isn't it? Who did they beat? They beat Bristol, wasn't it, over the weekend, Ealing?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think that might have done us some favours because I think if they'd lost closely to Gloucester and then lost closely to Bristol, they'd definitely be playing with a chip on their shoulder and they'd want to beat a top four team. Whereas maybe now they're gonna slightly get overconfident and think, okay, we can do this and we can take advantage of that. But it's definitely a tough and physical game. But hopefully it'll set up us set us up well for Exeter.
SPEAKER_04Hope so, and hopefully there's no danger of us getting complacent. It doesn't seem like it. You know, they seem to have to seem to be on a roll, to have the momentum and be really determined to do it. And if we can get another five points next week, it really does start to become exciting.
SPEAKER_03But it does, in particular, just looking at the league. I think you know, we're two points behind Queens in second and five points behind Gloucester Hartbury. You would expect Gloucester perhaps to be league leaders now. They've got enough of a gap there and do look very, very good. But yeah, that second place is really up for grabs, isn't it? And you know, a couple of good wins now. Um, you know, you could put Chiefs out, considering how far Chiefs were ahead at one point this season, they seem to have had a fall-off. And I mean, that was a big loss for them at home, really. You know, so it'll be interesting to see how they bounce back, um, given that at some point they're going to be playing us, obviously, as well, which is going to be a huge, huge game. But yeah.
SPEAKER_04Let's hope that they carry on playing in a way that gives old Toadface uh a reason to look even uglier than he is.
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, well, obviously, yeah. Yeah. He speaks so highly of you though, Duncan.
SPEAKER_04Well, if he does, I don't I don't hear it. I'm a I'm one heck of a lot better looking than he is, and I'll always have that, I think. So I think we'll we'll we'll leave it there. Uh we'll take a short break. Matt is editing this week, which doesn't mean I'm about to go into a string of very naughty words to give him more work to do, but uh we'll be back chatting about the men.
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SPEAKER_05Listening to the Fed Cast.
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SPEAKER_00This is the Fed Cast.
SPEAKER_04So we're back talking about the men. Alex has left us because she was at Harlequins while the uh men's game was taking place and she hasn't had a chance to watch it on catch-up, so that's fine. I was with my mother and my grandsons at Herm Bay in a pub eating fish and chips just about when the game kicked off. So I caught up with it yesterday when I got back, and I really don't know what I think about the game, is is the uh honest answer to that. Because in normal times, when we hadn't had a week like last week, when we all got very ratty and complained like hell about the team, you'd be saying, Well, it's a load of young players, we've got injuries up to our neck, we've got six players away with England. Any kind of point out of the game will be a bonus, and uh all we're really looking for is the youngsters to uh give a good performance, and all of that is true, but I don't know whether I mean as you said earlier, Jess, when we're talking about the women, we did see flashes of um different, better attacking play being put together, but it still just seems a bit error-strewn to me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I kind of get where you're coming from, however, I I can forgive errors if it comes off the back of players trying to do something, and I think you know they were trying to do as I said about the women inject some depth, inject some pace, and inject some incisiveness, in particular from inside center, someone that you I know that you rate very highly, don't cannot for Ollie Hartley really had a very impressive game. He made yards every time he got his hands on the ball, and he made yards at quite a rate of knots. And you know, I think when you look at the game, it was a game of if spots are maybe's, and we'll perhaps get on to um well, you said there was a bit of a storm in Exeter. We were on the back end of a tempest, weren't we, Barry?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um, I I re-watched the game today when I got back, and uh we we we can't blame the referee for that, uh for the loss, but you do wonder sometimes I I've always wondered how he how he gets away with it, to be quite honest with you, and and I'm sure both sides would would look back at the at the highlights and say, you know, there's things that you've missed, and there's some there's some strange old decisions in there. But I think that the the word of the day to sum up the men's performance for me was frustrating because we spent 62 minutes getting ourselves into a great position to to win that game, and then 10 minutes throwing it away.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I agree with you there. I mean a try where a foot was clearly in touch. I'll never turn that over, I do not know, but I mean, you know, perhaps that's my biased, cockeyed view of it. I definitely saw that for it hit the white, you know, and that was enough evidence for me for that to be pulled back. The biggest concern I had with the with the referee, and though, is the fact that let's let's talk about it. Well Martin Gonzalez deserved a yellow, it was a yellow. I mean, if it'd been a penalty, I don't think anybody complained. He did lift the player, no matter what Sam said on um our WhatsApp creep. I think he was the only person who didn't see that, it was a yellow card. You can't you can't get away from that. Harry Wilson, yeah, it was a high hit. My issue is how many high hits did the refereeing team, and it's not just Tempest, it's the whole team. How many did they miss? There was one on Nathan Michelow, there was one on Phil Brantigan, and um Capelli Pifatelli goes off with a head injury, which presumably came from a high hit as well. Never, not even looked at, not even, not even talked about. No, nobody said anything whatsoever. And that's what gets me is the inconsistency when you know we saw it, and in real time, it wasn't just me saying it. My wife sat there, the one on Nathan Mishlow, she went woof Are they gonna look at that? Don't really know that much about rugby, but she spotted it in real time. So why didn't the TMO spot it?
SPEAKER_04Well, as I said, I was sitting in the pub, but occasionally I was looking at the WhatsApp and uh and seeing all this steam coming out of your corner. So when I got round to watching the game, I was thinking, Oh, I'm gonna see a really horrific refereeing performance here. And yes, you know, with with the foot in touch incident, there were some shots where it appeared to be in touch and some shots where it definitely didn't. And um, you know, when it's already been given on the pitch, it's got to be absolutely clear, no doubt about it. Sometimes that would be given as a foot in touch, and some sometimes it isn't. And as for the other instance, yeah, that they happened, but like Wayne Barnes said, you know, referees are instructed to ref the game quickly. If they don't see something, they don't see something. And I those instance don't particularly stand out for me.
SPEAKER_02Purely because I watched it again today. I actually heard the question that he asked the TMO, um, and he phrased it in such a way that that it had to be uh conclusive proof that it was in touch. Now, I agree with Jez, his book was almost certainly in touch, but there wasn't a conclusive angle on it, and that's why it was not overruled on the it was one of those, if they'd ruled him in touch, they wouldn't have overturned that and given the try either. So it was just one of those where he actually phrased the question in such a way that that the TMO had nowhere to go with it. It was interesting watching it back on telly today, and I didn't realise this at the game. He Ian Tempest does a lot of he lets his uh linesman or assistant referees and the TMO do a lot of uh refing for him. Um I mean, obviously at international level he is the TMO, so perhaps he's got a different outlook on it, but it was amazing how many things he didn't see and he had to be told about, um particularly from Sarah Cox. I mean, Sarah Cox was was constantly in his ear about offsides and and high tackles and things, and uh he just seemed to not see an awful lot, and I I just don't I I don't personally get that. I mean I I felt uh with Sam a little bit on the on the Gonzalez thing because it was no way he was trying to lift him and no way he was trying to throw him out of there. It was just a bit of a it was a bit of a wrestle and um you know things escalated. Harry Wilson's red card, uh no arguments for me, and uh I've I'm gonna I'm gonna say it was a bit of a brain dead shot to be honest with you. It was a stupid thing to do, and he had plenty of time to to not do that. But interestingly, of course, um head contact, high degree of danger, the player plays on. No, no um HIA for him.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but that is that that that's not the point. I mean, overall, I'm very much with you on your your earlier comment because you know we were talking about how many players we've got missing, how many young players we've got in. Exeter in in a way, the reason why they are in where they are in the table is because all of their players are away all the time, you know, because they all went to sale or France or somewhere else, all their top players, and they're playing a very young team. They didn't have Mr. Hot Green paste on the wing. Um, and for for for listeners who are not regulars, um you I haven't gone completely mad. Um and frustrating, I think, is is is the word. We were good enough to get in position, and then a couple of quite often we talked about that Lottie Sharp try against Quinn's where she scythed through. Well, there's been a few times the castra, Munster, where we concede those tries, and that's what seems to undo us a lot this season.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, I agree with you on that. One thing I just wanted to pick up again on the refereeing though, as well, and this is something I'm really, really feel strongly about, and it's not just the referee and team on this weekend. Exeter Chiefs are coached to enter Rucks dangerously. Dangerous to the player entering the ruck, dangerous to the player through the ruck. And the problem I had was Ian Tempest at one point said to whoever was the skipper on the pitch, you need to watch what you're doing at rug time because you're you're you're going through and you're not clearing out the ball, you're clearing men out recklessly. And they continue to do it, and after he's had a word with them, nothing else was said. And Exeter Chiefs, the way they enter rocks, at some point in the future, they are going to store up a huge problem because they're going to enter a player, either one of their own players or an opposition player, badly through the way they do it, and the way that they enter rocks, they will we will see a law change because of the way that Exeter are coached to enter rocks.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you see exit nasty cheats, you see. Can't help it. Just getting a bit of our own back there. I mean, where I totally agree with you is the um attitude of the young players. They were like uh uh a breath of fresh air. And coming back to your comments about my grandson, as you call him, um, I like to see a big, bulky, solid bruiser of a 12 alongside a nippy 13. We used to have that with Brad Barrett, and I think we've we've we've got that with Ollie Hartley, and it's a better combination, him and um Olegs Lazowski than Nick Tompkins and Oliz Lazowski in in Alex Lasowski in my opinion. And it also has the uh further advantage of uh freeing uh Nick Tompkins up to play seven.
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, I mean that's uh remarkable. I mean, and fair dudes, he did very well when he came on. But talking about seven, I think the one lad that I think really does need to um be um lauded from that game. And I know the week before we talked about it, you know, if you're gonna not have Tom Willis and Ben Earl on the pitch, you know, Toby Knight's injured, he was who seemingly is the next cab on the rank behind Ben Earl. Nathan Michel, though, is a young lad came in, and I thought he had an immense game. Um, you know, every moment he was on the pitch, he made carries, he made tackles, he disrupted rocks, he got himself in, he put his he put his head in and body in places where he shouldn't be, and and had an absolutely amazing game.
SPEAKER_04He gets better and better every week, doesn't he? And you just have to remember how how young he is. He's not playing on Thursday, um, but he's I think he's still the captain of the under 20s, isn't he? For England. But uh if if he isn't, it's just because he's a few days too old. He is gonna be he's gonna be something. And yeah, we signed a Welsh um back uh rower, Karen Tuipalotti, the this week on a short-term loan, and then paid played another Welshman in that position, um, which is which was very interesting. But the thing that I'm beginning to wonder about is we kick the ball more than any other team in the premiership, and Ivan Van Ziel kicks it more than any other player in the Premiership. And I just wonder whether this is a good tactic because what Exeter did brilliantly, and other teams are doing it to us, is that when we do a box kick, I don't know whether it's some of the changes in the laws, but there are three players that just lurk back on our side of where the ball is going to land in a sort of half moon shape, waiting for us to flip it back. So Brandon Jackson, for instance, who has you you know had a great game, I I thought, would often get to the ball, tip it back, and there'd be three extra players waiting to catch it. And I just wonder whether this this tactic of of kicking more than anybody else has been found out, Barry.
SPEAKER_02We've done it for years um on and off. I mean, Richard Wigglesworth was was the box the box kick king, wasn't he? And and I wonder if it's just been a little bit more I wonder if it's kind of predictable that we're gonna do it. We're gonna go two phases and out if we're we're in our our own half, and you know, uh and and even sometimes in the opposition half, we'll if we're not going anywhere, we'll do it quite quickly. Um but you're right, I mean I I think we do we do kick from from hand more than than anyone else, although on Saturday it was actually only only one more than extra, because I've got the stats in front of me. But um, yeah, I it it it it's a little bit it's a little bit predictable and and we uh I I I do sometimes wish we'd be a little bit more adventurous and and try and go a little bit more. All the the back three players I felt played superbly at the weekend. It's a shame we didn't get them all on the ball one way or another.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, which we're failing to do, which is a sign of us playing narrowly, Jez. And the other thing is the reason when we do try and play expansively, leaving aside that static attack, which we've yeah, talked to death in previous weeks, that lack of accuracy usually finds us out when we try and play the ball through the hand.
SPEAKER_03Well, maybe so. I mean, I'll come back to your comment about the the umbrella of exeter Chiefs players having lazy runs back, as it were. The easy way to cope with that is to kick it slightly longer and to get some and to not only go with one person going up for it. If you've got somebody who can get in underneath that and tap it back, you've got to make sure that you've got a back row there. And to be fair, a lot of the time one Martin Gonzalez was getting there as well. And you know, at that point, if you start getting there and you've got that back row player there waiting for the for the tip down, then you're gonna force the chiefs or the defending players to to get further back behind the ball. Because you know, so I can see why they're doing it, and I don't see it as being as negative as perhaps a lot of people, other people would do, but you're right. Once you've created that broken play, that broken field, are we doing enough with that broken field? Now, a player I think we do need to mention because it was his first proper start for us in uh Sarsen shirt at 10. Young Louis uh Johnson. I thought I thought he showed enough promise there to, you know, that and in a lot of ways, his more consistent performance. I think he's more consistent performance was better than some of Fergus Burke's less consistent performances, although perhaps not as good as Fergus Burke when he's been really, really good.
SPEAKER_04We saw that, didn't we? I mean, poor old Fergus Burke had that that terrible bouncing ball which led to one of their tries. I mean, that that's just un unfortunate. I I agree with you about uh Johnson. But when Fergus Burke came on, there were a couple of great breaks that he did, didn't he?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think that's the difference in him, is that he has got that little bit of pace. And you know, fair deeds. We were talking about Amelia McDougall in the in the previous game. She's had 10, 15 starts for Saracens women, so she's comfortable when she starts. That's Louis's first start. And I thought, you know, to be fair, until he went off, we were leading. So, you know, with a period of time when we went down the center. His defense was very good. He made a couple of very big hits, some really good hits. Um, and yeah, you know, there were a couple of times where he he looked. One, he brought Ollie Hartley in at pace, and thank you very much. That's what we've been calling for. Also, there was times where he looked and said, All right, there's a little dink over the top on, or uh or try a longer kick pass, as it were, to the winger. And it worked. So there was a lot more variation, I thought, in this game, even if it didn't perhaps gel, which is understandable if it's your first game of 10.
SPEAKER_04Well, a few things are going to be interesting. When the league restarts in about four decades' time, are we going to see a Charlie Hodgton uh Owen Farrell type situation with uh you know them both play playing the game? Are they gonna use up one of the precious uh subpositions with that? And in this two-month, more than two-month break, I think, uh are they gonna be working hard on getting more accuracy in the back play? Let's hope so. Another aspect of the game that caught my eye was, and I go back again to that that interview that I did with Joel Tom Tompkins because he talked about how he came from uh an environment at Wigan where after a game everybody had to stand up at the team meeting and go through their own mistakes and in a way berate themselves. And he came to an atmosphere at Saracen's which was complete and utter positivity. And do you remember that story you told about the first time we went in for a team meeting and there were three people playing the guitar and four people singing, and he thought it was a wind-up. Um, now I bring that up because before the game they asked Mark McCall about the Castro performance, and he said, Well, we haven't talked much about that, which was in a way quite astonishing, but fits with that uh that ethos, doesn't it? That uh especially as it was only half the team that played against Castro and with those young players, they didn't want to dwell on it, which I found, you know, both surprising and not surprising, Barry.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean it's it's interesting. I'm I'm sure Alex Osterby's mentioned something similar about this before with the women's team. They don't focus on results. So what happened last week isn't particularly important, it's more that they're getting the systems right and and they're they're concentrating on what they can control, if if you like, and and how we play and and the the way that we want to play is is is more important than than the fact that you know we shipped to try because of XYZ last week or or whatever. So they they don't kind of go backwards on that. And it's it's probably well, it's it's definitely a different way of looking at it, um, and it's worked for us over the years. So who are we to complain about it? But yeah, it it's um if you take it in in isolation like that, it's probably a hard thing to understand.
SPEAKER_04I'll do I'll add one thing before I bring you in, Jez, because on the Twitter Nathan Mikkelov interviewed after the game. I said, What do you think about that? I thought it was brilliant, it was great to play with uh all of my young young mates, and we put in a really good performance. So unending positivity. So they're definitely sticking to their knitting, Jez.
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, and I mean it's an interesting thing. I think it's a subject I've brought up before, and bringing up the fact that I used to coach as well. There was a book, Total Rugby, by a guy called Jim Rutherford, which is like was 30 years ago, was the Bible by which you you went by, and again, winning by Clive Woodward, which is the story of how he developed the England team and business and everything like that. Top coaches will never throw the kitchen sink at players after a bad performance. I throw the kitchen sink at players after a good performance, and it's almost like saying you know when it went wrong. You you know there was no player who went on the pitch against Castro, for instance, thinking we're gonna have a crap game here. It doesn't happen that way. It sometimes occurs that you do have a crap game. If you'll walk off that pitch and if you've got anything about you, you know. And that's the same in any sport. If you're a sprinter and you've had a bad 100 meters, or if you're a cricketer and you've gone out for naught, you know if you've played a bad shot. You don't need someone telling you, you know, particularly when you're at the top of the sport, if you're a professional. But when you've had a good game is the moment then that you highlight when mistakes have been made, and you say it could have been a lot better. And that's what the real top coach is. I bet Smalley does that, you know, when they've had a really good performance, he'll come out and he'll say, But Alex Osterbury again when we put 100 points on in in the against Leicester, I bet he turned around after that game and was nitpicking on things where they could have got 120 points. But when they lost against Locker, I bet he just turned around and said, Okay, line in the sands, we don't go there again, but you know where we're not going again. Do you understand?
SPEAKER_04I do understand that, but the question mark in my mind is unless we're all completely wrong, and also uh at least 75% of the people online are wrong about our static defense. Wouldn't they look at it and say, What's this all about? What have we got to change here? That's why you'd look at a uh a bad performance and talk about it, wouldn't you?
SPEAKER_03Barry? No, the coaches will. The coaches will amongst themselves, Duncan, but not necessarily with the players. They will then work. What the coaches will do is they'll sit together and they'll say, Right, okay, what went wrong here? What went wrong there? But they're not going to go for the players because it's, I think it was an Owen Farrell thing where you talk about, you know, if it's a skill error, it's different to it being a commitment error or something along those lines.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And you know, so a skill error, that's on the coaches. The coaches then will look at and say, okay, what do we need to do on Tuesday morning when we get this group of lads together to make sure that doesn't happen again? And they'll concentrate on that particular skill or on that particular part of the game or that particular part of the pitch. What do we do better there? But they won't necessarily go to those players and say, that wasn't good enough. They'll go to them and say, This is what we need to do to be better.
SPEAKER_04Goodness me, Jez talking sense, Barry. What do you reckon to that?
SPEAKER_02I think the uh well, I'm I'm glad he beat me to the uh contractual mention of Owen Farrell for the week because I was worried we might not get that in. Um, but I've nobody's measured his hit on the Russell on the weekend either.
SPEAKER_04That's beauty, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_02But I do I do want to uh just go back to one thing, and we're talking about players and and players leading themselves, and that is something that we miss. And the difference between the men's side and the women's side is a character like Marley Packer, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_04Well, do you know it occurred to me because we we we talked last week about that that we don't have a diff uh an attack coach, and a number of people online said, Well, what about Kevin Sorrel, who is the backs coach? So obviously there's an element of attack in that, but does that link up with the forwards, etc.? And I did wonder, you know, to an extent for years, did we perhaps not need one because we had an attack coach? It was just that he was playing on the pitch.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and then we mean we talked about Alex Good. I think if Alex Good had been fit and he'd been playing, they might have been different. I do think Liam Williams has been such a good signing for us, in so much as he gives an element of that. Without, I mean, I think the biggest problem on the weekend was that you didn't really see that person who was going to be 100% vocal, and you would hope that it would be Ivan Van Zil, would be that person who would be 100% vocal, but you've got no Jamie George in the field, you've got no Maro Atozi on the field, you've got you know, Nick Tompkins comes on scobby, but not necessarily in the right way. And that was that was the one thing I felt that was missing. At the point in the time when suddenly, you know, you're down to this, that, or the other, and an exodus start, you know, got a couple of tries. There was nobody really there who was able to take that game by the scruff of the neck and just sort of like say, we need to shore this up. And that second try came because of that. We kind of went shell socks after the first try um with the foot in touch. Um they scored within seconds, didn't they?
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. Well, I think we've probably done that. Um I mean, summing it up, um, it comes down to a lot to be encouraged by and a lot to be frustrated by, which is you know, and that that that's one better than the castra game, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, it is, but it's uh now, of course, the the the bigger frustration is we've got I mean, we've we've got so long until we get next get a game in the premiership. I'll be a year older by the time we run out against uh Quinn's at the at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium.
SPEAKER_04But you know, that's probably a good time in terms of the injury list we've got, uh, and also hopefully sometime to look to look at these performances and do that heads together amongst the coaches and start trying different things, it could be a good time. But yes, we're back to the to the premiership cup next week, and actually a peach of a uh a fixture. Ealing is one of those those fixtures where they've got a strong team, um and our youngsters are gonna get a really good test, aren't they, Jez?
SPEAKER_03Oh, undoubtedly so, and I think the Exeter game is a is a really good blooding for those, and in in a way, it was good to have that game. I think what we need to remember quickly, just going back to the to the main competition, as it were, we're in fifth place. Yeah, we have a team that that has had kids going out there. I'm not sure whether we could expect much more, and we've said this throughout the season than where we are, in you know, in the mix for a playoff place. I think that's going to be a pretty successful season for this group of players.
SPEAKER_04But that's what another thing that Mark McCall said, he actually said before the game, I don't really care what we get out of this game because come what may, March will come around and we'll be in the mix. Uh so it was almost earlier, and he's expected nothing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but as I say, I think what's really important is it's set these boys up, you know, and another player I just wanted to mention as well, Max Um Ek, is it I I mean he's got a short name that you can't pronounce, but other than a couple of daft decisions that come from inexperience, which he will learn from, undoubtedly. Well, he had a great game. So these players are going to come in, and you're gonna see some youngsters coming through. I mean, presumably Harry Wilson's gonna be suspended for a little period of time, and uh, you know, so we're gonna have another young second row coming in and whatever. Uh, there's every chance that I'm Might be given a call to go and hook on the weekend because I think we're down to one bit hooker, aren't we in the club at the moment? Um, you know, so it's uh one of those things that it was good to get these guys blooded, I think, match ready.
SPEAKER_04There are a lot of parallels. There are a lot of parallels, unfortunately. Uh bittersweet reason is that um I forget his first name, but Ola Meed, um Jack Bracken, who you know I'm a big fan of, and Angus Hall are away with the England under 20s. Samsumadajimi is injured, as you say, as hooker. Um, so we'll see how strong the team is that we put out, but they're gonna have uh a very good run out against Ealing and a very tough time, I think.
SPEAKER_03That's the other thing to mention, though, isn't it? I think um Duncan Burry, because I've seen an awful lot of people quite rightly having a moan about the game on Saturday that we had six players out, you know, exit had Henry Slade out. If you want to grow the domestic game, you've got to make sure that the vast majority of the top players are playing in the premiership games. There's only 18 games in the premiership, they need to be playing in it. Now, I understand Matt Matt will turn around and tell us that you know you play a welfare, you've got to stand players down, but surely in a smaller league, you should be able to turn around and say that Maratosi and Tom Willis don't play this game, but you should Ben Hell should, you know, they should be able to stand down one or two players, especially if you're putting together a sick, you know, every team in a 35-team um in a 35-man squad for England, you would expect 10 teams in England to be supplying three and a half players. Well, we're supplying almost double that, so some sort of dispensation should be given to us for that. But it's incredulous to me. There's no other sport in the world that would ever turn around and say, right, this is a game that's going to be on TNT sports, where we want to grow the domestic game because we want to get people watching the game and everything, that we'll allow a game to go ahead and so many players are sat on the sideline watching it or or or um at the England training grounds and everything like that. It's incredulous to me. Football doesn't do it, they have international breaks and you know everything stops like a two-week period, and they play a lot more meaningless internationals that you you get away with.
SPEAKER_04It's ridiculous on so many levels. I mean, um, you know, the whole reason for the 10-team league was that apparently we were gonna have the stars for all the games, and the the the international periods were gonna be distinct for from that, but uh and there's a I don't know if you've seen it, there's a petition going round to uh to get this changed so that we can have the England players for all league matches. It's not gonna get anywhere for one simple reason. Everybody, RFU, England Premiership clubs are all in this together, and it's money. Because the game at the moment is in such a dire strait financially that it needs all of those 80,000 people at Twickenham paying unbelievable prices to help fund the game.
SPEAKER_03And then 80,000 people will pay that money to go.
SPEAKER_04Well, no, this is it, they won't. Because it's because they started not to, because England was so crap in recent years, that we then get the RFU coming in saying to the premiership clubs, well, we'll subsidize some of your salaries, like Marit, OJ, etc., if we can have more access to the players. So the premiership clubs agree to it because they get some more money out of it. And England have asked for it as the international game gets bigger and bigger and bigger and more bloated, because they need England to keep performing to sell those tickets at Twickenham.
SPEAKER_03But it does, I mean, I it it amazes me that because I mean, if you look at it right, I mean, cricket's a prime example. A county cricket game, I mean, four people and a dog turn up for most county cricket matches, unless you're surreal, you seem to be able to, you know, but that's a different story for a different podcast. But, you know, Joe Root doesn't play for Yorkshire. He never, you know, he's on Yorkshire's books, but he never plays a Yorkshire. Ben Stokes never plays at Durham, you know.
SPEAKER_04This is the danger. This is the danger if they keep going this way, because it would be very easy to end up like um cricket or in a lesser way like Irish rugby, where you only see the the top stars really for the European and knockout games. Um, and but cricket is is the absolute epitome of the threat that could happen, where the club game is completely divorced from the international game, and the internationals occasionally turn up in these um short-term uh things like the Indian Premier League. You know, it's it would be very easy to go that way. And we saw this year earlier somebody trying to start one of those competitions, uh, creating franchises in cities of a roving uh uh club tournament. So it would be easy. They are they have already gone too far that way, and it comes back to this overall discussion that we've had about how to structure the the English game, and it's not been done well.
SPEAKER_03And and you're right about the petition as well, Duncan. I don't know how you feel about it, Barry, but it will go nowhere because I would I would be more confident of it being listened to if Helen Keller was the head of the RFU, not Bill Sweeney.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, I mean there was a there's an interesting interview with Bill Sweeney on um another podcast that we won't mention, um, where basically he says that nothing's his fault because everything's run by committee, and to fix it, he's putting up another couple of committees. So I'm not really too sure where he's where he's going with that one, but but you're right, it it won't change as as long as the RFU is still uh supposedly in charge of rugby.
SPEAKER_04It's uh it it's a mess. I mean, I've said before the the premiership being run by the clubs themselves is just a recipe for a you don't get Turkish voting for Christmas, do you Jez? As uh and then the RFU is this this melange between the amateur game and the and and the England team. It's it's it's not it's no way to organise a chip shop, let alone a professional game.
SPEAKER_03They make they make bike Mike Bassett, England manager on the football, look almost professional, don't they? And I mean it's like it's crazy how they do it, and you know, well, who knows? I mean, I I I honestly think people are more concerned about having a prawn sandwich and a few bottles of Chablay at Swickerdam than they are about the game being successful, and until we get rid of them, as I say, it'll take a look it'll take a big wall and a lot of bullets, I think, metaphorically speaking, of course.
SPEAKER_04We shall see, we shall see if anything changes. Well, on that bright note, I think we'll call it a day. We've only called uh non-players. Uh we've only said rude things about non-players this week, so we're we're perhaps getting back to our our positive ways, who knows? I they still think we were right about the bath game. I think we were still right about that. But there you go.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and of course we've got the six days to look forward to, haven't we, as well.
SPEAKER_04So absolutely. Alright, gentlemen. Well, see you next week or not. We'll see who's up next week. It uh probably won't be me, but uh and they won't have oh no, they'll have E-ling to talk about, so that's so that'll be interesting. So many thanks for listening in, everybody, and uh speak to you again, I hope.
SPEAKER_00Cheers all next is the