S5 E19: Lightning Strikes

This week is a blend of the good, the bad, and the ugly - and we're not talking about your hosts...

Jez, Matt and Barry are with you this week to discuss bouncebackability, with an encouraging performance in victory over Bristol Bears, while there's also a shock defeat to Loughborough Lightning for the women's team in the race for the PWR semi finals.

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Title Music (from Season 4): "Herald" by This Winter Machine

Transcript

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SPEAKER_05 0:00

You're listening to the Fez Cast, a Saracen Spans podcast bringing you the independent and unhinged views of the voices in our heads, as well as those of our special guests. To get in touch with us, find the Fezcast on social media and listen to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube and Thanks for tuning in. Enjoy the Switch show.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

Or listening to the FezCast.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

And this time we've got the gruesome freesome in. It's me, Matt, and Barry. So um yeah, the home of discontent. Well, actually, we best start off here, haven't we, Matt and um Barry? Because you had a bit of a um of a I don't want to turn the five were you, but you picked up on a little bit of um of uh flack, as it were, coming our way, apparently in the aftermath of the bath game, where you weren't critical enough. Is that right, Matt?

SPEAKER_05 1:11

It sounds like yeah. I mean, to be honest, I've not actually uh not actually listened to what you and Duncan said. I I've sort of banished the um the entire existence of the uh of the bath game from all memory, so I've not even bothered with that. So yeah, I think um I think a few people potentially sometimes see the effort to find the bright side in uh utter rubbish as um as maybe not being critical enough. But you know, everyone's different.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Well, I think the problem here is we're fans, aren't we? And uh and as was pointed out last season, I had the temerity to suggest that Owen Farrell uh wasn't having the best season, and you know, this week is it the quip or one of the papers in France that turned out and told her of the world that he's the flop of the season over in France, which is a uh an interesting um viewpoint, considering he's only played right, so he goes, but I suppose us bogging him on there in four well days injury phone wasn't bad because after all, wasn't worrying, but you know, we don't want to be Arsenal TV, do we, Baron?

SPEAKER_02 2:12

No, absolutely not. I mean, this this podcast is is what it's got six or seven, I think, regular contributors, and it reflects our views, our individual views. There's there's no editorial line, and anyone who wants to anyone else who wants to get involved is more than welcome to drop us an email on fizcast.sa atoutlook.com and we'll happily read out any uh any feedback or suggestions.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Absolutely well. You know, we've we've we got that one out of the way quick. That was a little bit of a scratch I had to whips, as it were. Um, but moving on, we could be a little bit critical, I think, because the first thing we're gonna talk about in part one is the second game of the weekend, Saracen's women at Northampton, after a pretty fantastic game of um rugby between Northampton and Bath, um, going down to look for lightning. And I'm gonna throw some criticism out here, and you guys can tell me whether this is justified or not. But I saw Alex Osterbury, head coach's comments before the game, and he basically said, you know, Lockborough and the team that could cause a few problems to the top five teams this season. And it was almost as if it was um, you know, careful what you wish for. It was a full for self-fulfilling prophecy almost, Matt.

SPEAKER_05 3:31

Well, yeah, it wasn't wrong, was he? Yeah, I mean look, I I a couple of weeks ago on the show, I I did sort of highlight the fact that you've got the top five the top five chasing the top four, work that one out, um and and the bottom four in the league, and it's very, very split. And up until this weekend, no one in that bottom four had beaten anyone in the top five. Um but I think um you look at Lutherborough's the the players that Luther have got in their team, and you go, well, they are the ones that that were always gonna be the biggest banana for Ginter teams, and actually Harlequin's almost got beaten by trovelanders as well recently. So, you know, it's not beyond the realms of possibility. But yeah, I I I do look at Alex Asterbury saying that pretty much. I think it's almost right you know, to to say, you know, don't just assume that we're gonna turn up and beat these teams in the bottom four. And he'll have said that to the team, surely. But yeah, it it it is a little bit um I'm going a bit to Alanis Morrisette because it's not ironic at all. But um, you know, it it it was it almost became a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, like you said.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

So yeah, I mean it's a it's a big issue, isn't it? I think that you uh like when you're trying to strike a balance and everything, how do you strike a balance of or not going in overconfident, paying respects to the opposition? Loughborough are a good side, they've got some really good players there. And last year at Northampton, when they played last year, the game I went to where we uh where we interviewed um the alien fancy after the game, Loughborough ran Sarasons very close. And I think there's an issue there that at the end of this season, I think the big problem is that getting a home semi-final now is looking increasingly difficult, Barry. Exeter and Gloucester are winning games and look almost like, even now with still some games to play, that those top two positions are kind of almost beginning to get nailed on. Not saying that things can't change, there are still games that could change it. If those two top two are the top two teams, I don't fancy any side going to Gloucester or Exeter and winning in a semi-final, Burry.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

No, it's it's gonna be very, very difficult, and uh we really could do with a home semi-final. Having said that, if there's one club that that could do it, it's it's gonna be Saracens. But I mean, we're almost into the stage of every match between now and the end of the season is a cup final and a you know a must-win game, really, and and that puts a lot of pressure on. But um, I'm sure the girls will respond to that pressure in the right way.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Well, I hope so. And I mean again, there's as we spoke about last week, me and Duncan when talking about the uh taking all 10 wickets for just 68 runs when the Saracens don't play bath. You want to see effort, and you know, I think we did see effort from the from from the Saracens women. I mean, there was atrocious conditions, which you know, it's same for post rights, but when Saracens were attacking and having more of the ball that gives you more opportunity to drop balls, make mistakes, whatever, in bad conditions, doesn't it, Matt?

SPEAKER_05 6:46

It does, yeah. Um, you know, we can say the conditions played a part, but they've they've played a part in games that we've won as well. So yeah, I I don't think anyone's gonna be anyone's gonna be making any excuses like that. And yeah, Barry's right, it's every game is a cup final. We need certainly need to win our remaining five games, and we probably need a bonus point in all of them. Um and that starts with playing Leicester next week, which is I suppose it's probably the the game you want. Leicester at home after a bit of a bit of a setback, it's it's the one that is so far the easiest fixture of the season. So nothing less than a five-point win is is gonna be what we need, and if we get any less than that, then yeah, game over. But you know, our run into the end of the season is still um easier in inverted commas than everyone else around us, to be honest. So teams will be dropping points. So everyone everyone does play each other. We've got to beat Quinns, we've got to beat Exeter, but there is still a shot at that home semi-final. But yeah, five wins.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Yeah, absolutely. Well, hopefully this game is the kick on the backside. That's the guys need to kick on. So I have a break there, and then we'll come back and discuss a pretty major win against Bristol Bears on the weekends in part two.

SPEAKER_03 8:05

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SPEAKER_00 8:13

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SPEAKER_03 9:02

This is the Fezcast.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Well, welcome back to the second part of uh tonight's Fezcast or today's Fezcast. And time to discuss the the big match at Stone X on Saturday, um, which was um a taming of the bears at Stonex, done the double over them. And I think blessing to say, Barry, it was really important that we got back up on that winning horse, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 9:32

Yeah, absolutely. I we we we would have asked for a reaction and and I and I think we got one. The the effort, the spirit, and and the the energy that the lads put out there on at the weekend was was second to none, and and it was uh we we'll discuss the game in in more length in a bit, I'm sure, but um I never quite felt comfortable, but I I never felt that we were really in that much danger of losing that game.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

No, I I don't I don't think so. And also I think Matt what it does is is it highlights some of the criticism of the bath game, or particularly the selection for the bath game, where the likes of Tom Willis and Nick Tompkins were rested, had a week off, came back, and actually the pair of them played exceptionally well again, didn't they? And um proved that you know, as we often say, in Smalley we trust, I think they got it right. They accepted that perhaps Bath wasn't going to be a game to throw all of your weaponry at it. You know, sometimes discretion is the better part of Allah.

SPEAKER_05 10:39

Yeah, I mean I I think to be honest, um with the uh Bath game, I I think a lot of people were didn't quite gather who was injured, who was rested, who wasn't. So I think there are a few people whinging about certain players being missing in that game when they were never actually available. I mean, you mentioned Nick Tompkins, he was the one that was rested, but we've been saying for about three years he could do with a break. So, you know, I I I don't really know what people want in that regard. You know, at some point Marumitoji needs to have a week off. Um we're all gonna moan about it. It's just the fact of uh of of what rugby is at the moment. But I I think I think we we got we got it right against Bristol. I think it was one of those performances where actually if we'd have lost we still wouldn't have gone away that disappointed because you'd have seen still seen such a big improvement, such a big difference from the bathroom would be disappointed to lose. But yeah, it it was just that that confidence to bounce back and actually be trying quite a few new things in the uh in the Bristol game. In fact, one set play from a line out which was Bristol never clocked it, I think, three or four times in the first half. We did exactly the same thing, and um it led to two tries, I think. Um you know, never really seen it from us before. So yeah, I can't really argue. It's a shame about last week, but this week was great.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Yeah, um the interesting thing that you say about Maro Atozi uh needing a rest. I mean, of course, Maro in pretty much every game he plays now, I guess 10 minutes on the sideline, um pedaling the um exercise bike, doesn't he? Uh Barry, is that becoming a problem?

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Um it's I believe that's his eighth yellow card this season, if I if I uh uh remember that correctly. Um, yes, it is. I felt he was a bit unlucky on on Saturday. I actually hands up, I had to go to the toilet and I had so many layers on it, it took me about half an hour to come back. And by the time I came back, the clock had moved on about two minutes, and I sat down and said to my uh the bloke I sit next to, I haven't missed much. He said, Oh, Toji's in the bin. I was what? And I watched it back on the telly on on Sunday, and I can't really work out the the the uh what was behind it. I mean the referee said there was three, you know, uh three three um penalties in three in quick succession against him, but he only ever signaled two, so I'm not sure where the third one came from, but uh it it seemed a bit harsh to me, that one.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Well, I think from from my point of view, and I and I know Matt plays a little game at the moment where he doesn't look at his phone during the game and then puts a little bet on with himself, at to which point I'll sent a message on WhatsApp moaning about the referee. And you got it bob on this week, didn't you, Matt?

SPEAKER_05 13:23

I did, yeah, but it it's honest, it was a pretty obvious one, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 13:27

It was. I mean, I think my biggest problem was, and and and I'm gonna have a bit of a little bit of a gripe about referee over the last couple of weeks, and not only in our game, but also in other games I've seen, is uh it's consistency again. You know, so in the first half, Saracens gave away four penalties, of which Murrow probably gave away three of them, 75% of them. But fair news, if the referee seen him being the constant offender, I haven't got a problem with a yellow card business leader. But Bristol had given away double the amount of penalties that Murray Soji had given away in their own 22, and there hadn't been a warning. Now, for me, you've got to play an even consistency, and then it comes back to different interpretations. So the week before we see Toby Knight getting red carded, which has now been ratified. He's got a free match ban, two matches if he does the naughty boy course, whatever it may be. But in the Bath Northampton game, we saw Alex Mitchell get a yellow card for something that wasn't that much different, I didn't think. Okay, Ollie Lawrence made a bit more of it than perhaps he should have done and has apologised for it. But Sam Underhill put one in on, I think it was on Finn Smith, that was a penalty only. And I started thinking that was no different to Toby Knight. So this inconsistency is beginning to annoy me a little bit. And at the moment we've seen to be on the on the on the back end of it, you know, and I know in the future we'll probably be on the on the right side of it, but at the moment we seem to be a little bit on the back side of it.

SPEAKER_05 15:10

It's I I'm honest, I uh Toby Knight's red card. I did sort of sit and read the detail that Saracens provided um to try and get him off of it, basically. And the and the response from the RFM is just no there's no there's no real explanation for why you know what's been written down hasn't been considered at all. I mean, it even says in the in the disciplinary proceedings that you know he he made an effort to bend, he hinged at the hips, it was practically horizontal. The player running into him had lowered as well, but then it just goes, Yeah, we didn't find any mitigation. So what's the threshold? No one really knows.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

So I don't know what a threshold in that situation was, it's Carl Dixon. And Carl Dixon gets a lot of um a lot of criticism, justifiably. And I think the RFU just protected him. They know he got it wrong, but they're not gonna, they're not going to um throw him under a bus because he's the one referee who probably needs to do some brushing up on their um refereeing skills, my personal view. But Carly has his moments, but on the whole, I thought Matt Carly refereed the game pretty well. It's just that consistency. I don't I want to see that uh improved, Barry.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

There was a uh a point of the game on Saturday when it seemed like we everything we did was a penalty against us. Um and Carly was getting a bit of stick from the from the crowd as well. I mean, there's there's odd things I could I could argue about his decisions, having watched it back on telly, and and I don't really get some of them, but just to go back to that Toby Knight one, I I I couldn't see a great deal of arms involved in that, so I think that's probably where it it fell down. But then I couldn't see a great deal of arms involved in the Alex Mitchell one on Sunday either. So yeah, you're you're right, consistency is what we'd like, but are you ever really going to get that when we're talking about human beings?

SPEAKER_01 17:09

I don't know. True, I mean, very true. That that is a very good point. Well, shall we move on and point out? It was a bonus point win, and it was an exceptionally good game, I felt. Uh and even for the neutral, you know, neutral have enjoyed it much. But I want to pull out two people in this. So the first person I'm going to pull out is somebody who's been mentioned before. And I can't remember who who who made the comment about him being one of those players like Alec Cleary, who you used to worry a little bit about with coming on as a substitute. Harry Wilson, you know, inexperienced young player, come from Doncaster, a big step up in quality. He's been called on with Hugh Tizard out, Theo McFarlane's out, whatever. Start at second run. And I thought he had an exceptional game, including a lovely little offload that led to um Cynthia's try in the corner. I mean, a fantastic performance from him, wasn't it, Matt?

SPEAKER_05 18:08

It was, yeah. He's the sort of player that I that I really like. He just getting on with the basics, no nonsense. You don't really see him too much. But yeah, but by all accounts, he's very highly regarded among the among the squad. Um, and yeah, he he certainly showed on Saturday, Sunday, Saturday, that it was um yeah, he's he's making this step up brilliantly. Um I thought he had a fantastic game. It was someone that you know, I was sitting at matches with my dad and he went, Oh god, we're desperately short in the second row. Is he you know is he gonna be our weak link? And actually, he really wasn't. Him and Marrow between them, although Marrow did pick up the yellow card, made a huge difference probably at the breakdown, um, which is what led to us being able to play a much faster-paced game than we have done in in the last three or four weeks or so. So, yeah, brilliant, really.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

I mean, I think that's the thing about Mara when you talk about the breakdown and why he gets a lot of yellows, is he's one of those players that goes past a limit to find out where the limit is and takes risks at the breakdown that sometimes come off, and at the moment isn't coming off. But I think it probably doesn't help that he's a very recognizable chap, isn't he, at the end of their day? I mean, you know, you don't get to be six and seven and you know, uh and be as famous as Maramatoshi, you know, the Mark Suspenses adverts and models and all of this. I mean, he does get noticed when you go in, and I mean he can only make it worse by wearing lyrid green boots or something, I think, you know, or just about always always remember players turning up when I used to play and they'd have these brand new blue boots on everything. You sit there with your black boots on it. Well, when I go in and do the sausage shuffle or somebody's back, they ain't gonna notice me doing it. So I mean so I do think Mario's a bit unlucky there. However, what I will say about Maro Atoji, I mean, he did supply the highlight of the season, I think, with he's telegraphed Johnny back of a 50-yard run after reading a tip pass from Ellis Kenzie. I thought had an absolute state. And if he's in England Sixth Nations right now, Wolfick really does need to have a word of himself. Um yeah, that's a bit later on, I think. But yeah, he did put that big run in, and then the ball gets out to Tom Willis, who just you know does Tom Willis' things. But that whole try, I felt, was made by one player, and one player who, if Bergus Burke hasn't been given man in the match on the day, should have got man of the match, I think. I think he made something like 25 tackles, and then it was a ridiculous amount of work. One Martin Gonzalez kept that move alive through sheer determination when Ivan Van Zil tried shipping out and it got a bit bobbly and everything. He had a couple of Bears players around him, and he got there, won that ball, and kept it alive so that he could get out to Burgess. He put out a Tom, who was out there seagulling as all good number eights to score a try in the corner. I mean, fantastic stuff, Barry.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

Yeah, I mean it it was a great try. I I think both um both Tom and Mara were probably very, very happy it was the last play of the first half because they could go off and sit in an oxygen tent for five or ten minutes and try and get some uh some air back in their lungs. But uh, yeah, I mean JMG was brilliant. It was actually 26 tackles, I think he made on the on the day, which is which is some work rate. Um but I've I've got I've got to say, as as good as his work was for that particular try, he was very lucky the Bristol players didn't realise there were no off sidelines because if they had, they could have just dived on that ball and killed it stone dead.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Yeah, I well again, I mean it's it's about having a player with the more intelligence than the other players around him, that. and and JMG for all his youth because don't forget he's still a young guy really he's he's not he's not you know he's not a thirty two year old login the teeth war horse is he's a young guy still you know developing his game in the premiership as it were and he just showed that little bit the old famous Clive Woods top inch wasn't it Matt it was yeah I mean it was quite a fun sight really sort of seeing Harry Randall almost do a full 360 around the ball without knowing he could pick it up but um yeah I mean there's so many other players we could name in the in the game as well you mentioned Tom Willis I from my to me I didn't actually realise how much work he still had to do um for that drive to me it was it was about 10 metres out but obviously if usual and when you sit in front on for a minute he was well outside the 22 but um you mentioned Fergus Burke well we we do need to talk about Fergus Burke as well and but not just him as an individual just but the slightly changed way of bringing him into the game um having him almost more often than not actually not as first receiver um yeah well I think I think a big big thing needs to be put out for a player that we've mentioned before which is Nick Tompkins and if you think that Nick Tompkins has played the entirety of his career outside very similar tens either at Saracens outside Owen Farrell or for Wales outside Dan Bigger for the most part of it who are pretty similar tens in the way that they play that they'll take it to the line and then be looking to be put players at pace into gaps. Nick suddenly had to step up with a different type of standoff and very quickly has developed that side of his game that we didn't really know was there for the last 10 years Burry it's been vastly different for not only for for Nick but also I mean for Fergus. Fergus has come halfway around the world to play in a league he's probably never seen before except the the odd game on television and uprooted you know whatever family or whatever he's got and changed hemispheres and everything else and he he's it was always going to take time for him to to bed in and add on to that as well the fact of who he was replacing at Saracens and how much um affection and and how much the team had been built round Erwin um it was always going to take a while for him to to to gel and then he got an injury in the middle of it as well but uh yeah you know he's he's definitely looking the part now and uh and long may it continue another another couple of games like that and I think he'll be uh he'll be a fan's favourite I think he will do indeed uh looking at some of the free word reviews I'll pick up one from Jimbo we said some attacking creativity which has been something that has been a criticism that's been level in recent weeks hasn't it matt um but yeah we saw some some great uh creativity I think the one uh one that somebody picked up that I think Brano Dereschool picks up on commentary if you watched it back was um Fergus's first try where Jamie George made a a a run on a soft shoulder of the young lad playing fly hearth who I did feel really sorry for because he was hoiked off unceremoniously at the you know the the the the 50 minute mark as if to say well it's all your fault mate which is got to be a terrible terrible hit to his confidence um because I don't think he was getting any support from outside him and for all those people who can't wait for Bernard hands of on Rensburg to the 15th or or Bloomfontaine whatever his name is he's got one of the weird South Africa as he thinks he'll walk straight into outside centre for England when he qualifies I think Alex Lazowski showed him how to play the game didn't he did yeah yeah Loz is um is again is another one that's just chugging along ultra reliable this season fantastic really but I mean the the attack and creativity side I I definitely agree that that we've had games it's obviously the Newcastle game's an obvious one um where we just looked incredibly static in attack but a lot of it does you know you don't just entirely blame the backs a lot of it does come from the breakdown being sometimes this season it's been it's been really really slow getting the ball out and and that's but because we've been second best at the breakdown um Ivan van Zair was able to pick up a ball as soon as he arrived at it yeah it was it makes it so much easier it was hugely quick and I think uh Nigel Ridpath has pointed out that defense wins games doesn't it um which is an interesting one um quite interesting well I say I mean Steve Cummins is a man not not known for his uh his inability to to to count and he's got three free word reviews first off bottom mouth Jamie yes naughty naughty Mr George you really should uh um you know after 300 games games and we'll say congratulations to Jamie on that um uh milestone but yeah I mean as much as Matt Cardi can frustrate the living daylights out of people you've got to keep that one under control and I think Marrow uh being told that was another thing that I think that was was it um um was it David Flatman on company turned round and said he looked away there he goes from Jamie to two that player if he swears again he's leaving the pitch was quite a quite an explanation of the uh bit like sending an email isn't he instead of saying kind regards saying regards you know you know you really upset someone that player will leave the pitch you know um he also said better Willis brother which uh I mean I'm not sure I mean if you have both the Willishes I mean that's that's I I've seen them out of talent in just one family but he has also said back on track which is which is true um the other one I wanted to pick up though is Oliver Archer's got two free web reviews he said did you a treat yes indeed it was um but frustrating last quarter he's wearing brackets again and I think that's the important thing to pick up on Barry isn't it the fact that again and I will say uh I'll have a bit of a window again about Mr. Cardi he did his normal thing of uh of letting a team back into it um and we started giving away penalties uh because Bristol started throwing the ball around I think the third try the one the the big Fijian scored in the corner um firstly I didn't think it was a penalty I think whoever got there and I can't remember who it was who was P nice won the ball cleanly and was and should have the penalty should have been for them and then Harry Randall took the um took the the quick tap about 15 foot from where the mark was which is a little bit of a uh what's uh a bit slightly annoyance but yeah it's a bit worrying that we let them back in to score that bonus point fly isn't it Barry yeah it it's a it was a little bit annoying and I mean we we can discuss the tactic at the end of trying to trying to keep the ball and whether that was a mistake.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

I mean it the the way the game had been going in the last 20 minutes you kind of felt that it probably wasn't a uh with hindsight it we got it wrong but it probably wasn't a bad idea to try and play out the uh play out the clock but I think Bristol definitely got better when they replaced uh Worsley with Byrne at 10 and I think they look more dangerous from from that moment and the uh their replacement winger revovo he was a really tricky player to to tackle you could see it in the the the the the movement he's got and the he was another one of these sort of all arms and all legs and and where on earth you tackle a player like that I I just don't know and he he seemed to boy fright the life out of me and mine mind the players but um yeah I it was a frustrating last last quarter um but looking at the two teams and looking at the benches and what was likely to happen over the course of the game you could kind of see that coming and and I'm glad we were far just about far enough in front to hang on at the end.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Yeah I think so and I yeah I think that's one of the at the end of the day five points is five points in this league teams are looking at getting bonus points for either four tries or losing bonus points. I think what was good was we stopped and getting a losing bonus point you know and and a couple of occasions when we took kicks penalty kicks where perhaps people would have thought well you know let's go for the corner that paid dividends in that side of the game didn't it map the the the decision to take those two penalties that essentially made the difference between Bristol getting two bonus points and the one bonus point they did.

SPEAKER_05 30:56

Absolutely yeah well we um we we took a penalty when we were I think we were 13 points ahead and you think well yeah you get get more than two scores ahead fair enough and if you go on to score more tries you go on to score more tries at the end of the day we already had four ourselves you just keep keep ticking the points up yeah so I've got no no issue with that whatsoever and and yeah I I agree with Barry and I've sort of looked at Bristol's bench mainly sort of seeing Revolvo on it and thinking I really hope they don't bring him on any earlier than about 78 minutes we'd have been in trouble. And um you know I yeah so I I I kind of saw the game going the way it did in that last 20 um fair play to you know there were some tight bodies out there um and you could see in the substitutions that we were making they they they just had to be made I don't think Mark McCall necessarily wanted to bring on some of the players we had on the bench and that's no disrespect to them but it was just necessary to freshen things up a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Indeed yeah Jamie George going almost the full 80 minutes which you know the poor old boy's getting on a bit now it's the you know he used to be able to do that three four years ago without any issues whatsoever. Now I think it looks a little bit more difficult. Now next we've got Munster but before we do that um six nations is on its way up and I just want to um scratch your brains let's let's think we are now Steve Borthwick and and Richard Wigglesworth and the rest of the England um uh management team who at Saracens are you looking at and and who potentially could go to the Six Nations squad we know Jamie George is going to be there using the captain we know Maratogi's gonna be there I mean that's just a given there the two of the first names down on the team sheet we've been saying for a long long time that Tom Willis and Alex Lazowski should be there and you know if you're picking on four then you know there's no reason why you don't pick Tom Willis.

SPEAKER_05 32:55

I mean if Borthwick doesn't then you know Tom's obviously weed on his core flights or something hasn't he at some point in the future or Alex Dolbrand seriously has got some real real knock on Borfis and I'm gonna throw two names out there though and see whether it goes at the flag pole and you salute it as a bolter first off in the wing position given that Femi was CB or whether he I can never say his name right and I apologise to unreservedly but allowed the exit is out injured at the moment isn't he want a player similar to him who does the same sort of similar things to him I don't think Ratimi Shagan is doing himself any harm at the moment and if he was to be brought into the Sixth Nation squad it wouldn't be so much as a bolter as it would have been at the start of the season I think the only reason Ratimi Shagan does himself harm is when his hamstring goes ping um otherwise he probably been would have been playing for England by now but yeah I I definitely agree with you he is he is a similar player to um Faye wasabi as Duncan would call him um and yeah I I could I could see him as a bit of a bolt of England but look the wing position is is probably one of England's strongest I think you you could pick a lot of different players um with different skills in the wing position for England so I I'm not sure I can see Shigan there but yeah I if he was picked you'd say he deserves it for sure.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Well indeed I mean you know uh you look at what wingers we've got and presumably what um Forthwick favours as wingers is he likes quite big strong guys but if Richard Wigglesworth as your attack coach there's going to be an awful lot of box kicking and I think despite the fact that Shagan is one of the smaller wingers he's exceptional under the high ball isn't he Barry yeah he's he's exceptional on defence as well I've never seen a a winger who quite as much as Shagan enjoys a tackle and also looks like he's quite capable of bouncing back onto his feet getting over the ball and winning it and he has done on a couple of occasions this season is there's not really much missing from his game. The only slight criticism I've got of him is he doesn't he he does tend to keep the ball a little bit and I think occasionally he'd be better off putting a little chip in over the the last defender and making players turn and then using that defensive ability and I think that's that's the only thing missing from his game for me. But uh he he definitely would look out of out of uh place in the international stage.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Now the other player we've mentioned Matt and we mentioned him on his WhatsApp on our WhatsApp group this um this morning when we were discussing things is our number 10 Fergus Burke who has an English mother qualifies for England is one of the form tens in the country now he won't get picked Ada Marcus because Finn Smith won't get a Marcus Smith even though I think Finn Smith's a better 10. Is Fergus Burke someone as Steve Wolfick should be looking at not this year.

SPEAKER_05 35:58

No I I think I think give him a full season um playing domestic rugby if his form of the last week continues for a little while um then yeah maybe we'll talk about it no I I think it's far too early for Fergus Burke and I I I think mainly because you've got the two to me George Ford will still be around you know he will um but also if you've got the likes of Alex Lazarski Henry Slades there are people in there that can comfort him if if needed over the course of the six elections anyway so yeah I think it's a bit early but it will be very interesting to see what Fergus Burke's long term plan is. Obviously he could go back to New Zealand and try and play for New Zealand but that that race may have been run.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

He could play for England and he could play for Scotland and you'd argue that he's not going to be it's gonna take a hell of a lot to be the uh the main man at 10 for either of those nations so yeah we'll have to have to see what he wants to do really yeah indeed I mean there may well be people watching down down in New Zealand who might be interested as well you never know but need to finish up and chat about the game coming up because European rugby starts again doesn't it I I get confused as to is it two weeks on two weeks off or something like that you know like the a shift system that the Europeans come in but we're away in in Ireland um uh against Munster on the weekend and you know what do you want to see from that game Barry what do you expect from us what would be a good result a good result it it really it's really difficult to know um I made this comment a couple of weeks ago talking to a friend of mine looking at the the block of fixtures that we've got I'd not be surprised if we picked should we say if if we rotated players out for the away games that we've got um so obviously you know you you've you've got Bath in there you've got Munster in there and you've got Exeter in there and I mean we're gonna lose players for Exeter anyway because of the England you know the the the training score for the Six Nations I'd not be surprised to see us rotate a few players on Saturday and concentrate on on winning the home game against Cass for the following week uh I think if we can get anything at all out in Munster it's it's gonna be a bonus for me.

SPEAKER_05 38:21

I think yeah I'd agree with that Matt for you yeah I think on the face of it I probably would although month Munster aren't having the best of seasons and I don't think well they well they certainly weren't at the start of the season though they've picked up a little bit for now so I you know I think I think we should be looking to get something out of the game um and let's be perfectly honest um at a time when everyone in rugby needs some money some home knockout features is is is very very important so um I think we do need to be going pretty full tilt in both of these games to try and finish top of our group which is the bizarre way that the uh the system works we could win all of our games quite handsomely and still finish second um just the way it is unfortunately um but but yeah I'd I'd I'd like us to to go strong to to Munster and and you know try and nick a win and then um get five points against Castro and put us as as high in the seeds we possibly can get some knockout rugby.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Yeah yeah I agree with that it would be good to see that.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

And yeah you know I mean bearing in mind that you're gonna have some players that are going to be not rested but off on international duty which is something I know you wanted to pick up on the again the whole omni shambles I nearly swore then Barry but the completed out of rickets that we've made this season that you only play 18 matches and yet you can still have players off at Fenny Hill Park whatever it's called holding tackle bags for Steve's England training squad yeah I mean apart from the fact that in in the last conversation we had you just about tried to give everyone away to England um including including some people who may not even qualify yet that if we're going to lose players again and we are going to lose an awful lot of players I mean no one's mentioned Ben Earl he's he's gonna be disappearing off as well but I mean you look at the the ridiculousness of the autumn internationals we lost Alex Wazowski for that that last game before them he went and basically well I don't know what he did he might have might have been sweeping up the changing rooms for all I know he never got anywhere near the pitch for England and it it does seem frustrating that that we have to lose players who may or may not get a game in all that time and we're punished for it.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

I mean obviously other clubs are punished as well it's not just about us but perhaps it's time to look and and look at it and say you can only take a certain number of players from any one team if particularly the week before um other than that it it just seems it does seem unfair I mean that this I I'm actually just booked up to go to Exeter so uh I'm gonna take my boots just in case we get a game well yeah I mean pick me up on the way down Burrow I mean my boots are always dubbed ready to go you know I can't can't promise you I'll be able to do Tom Willisy things I mean a lot slower but I mean but yeah you know I mean that's that's one of those things isn't it I mean yeah I mean the only other thing is is uh again uh and as as as Duncan often say turkeys and Christmas and everything like that is to look at when the Six Nations is played and why isn't the Six Nations perhaps played at the end of the season now I mean yes tradition's tradition isn't it but if you if you've got a a smaller leagues across the competitions as well and I suppose you know you do have to speak to the French the Italians the Irish whatever but surely there's a way that we could perhaps play a little bit later so that we could get our league season more complete before the Six Nations start.

SPEAKER_05 42:01

I don't know I mean again you know it takes a lot of conjoint thinking which I'm not sure is entirely um possible with the way that the game's set up um in either domestically or internationally matt you're probably right there I must say I'm probably in a bit of a minority that I don't I don't really mind it the odd game when that happens and um go back to finances again but I every club is compensated relatively handsomely when it does happen so it's it's not not a huge issue and you've got to remember as well that quite a few of our players now are actually paid by England in a certain amount so can't really argue with it. But yeah I I I don't know what the answer is to be honest. I'm not sure I'd want the Six Nations played at the end of the season because that sort of stops you playing the Southern hemisphere teams as much over our over our summer but I don't know it is what it is we'll just we'll just have to play a a more expanded Prem Cup or something just to just to fill some gaps. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Maybe now last thing you wanted to say before we finish um we did mention him last week because he's off to Japan um putting some yen in his pocket but you wanted to bring up Tom Part again didn't you Barry?

SPEAKER_02 43:11

Yeah it's just just uh from my point of view it's a great shame to see him go. I mean he he kind of when he when he was playing last season I thought he was uh he was here for a good while he certainly seemed to be improving the the longer he had and it's just a shame to see him go particularly mid season as well because um all joking aside we are struggling for numbers at the moment I mean we've got so many injuries I think anecdotally it looks like um McFarland's out for about 12 weeks so you know not the same position obviously but we are you know uh Hannick's Good's out and uh if Elliot Daly goes to England as well um we we could well be struggling for numbers in the over the next few weeks and it was just a shame to see him go in the middle of the season but obviously he's been offered a few quid and uh good luck to him.

SPEAKER_01 43:59

Yeah yeah of course of course well gentlemen thank you for your time and everybody in um podcast land thank you for your time as well listening in to our witcherings and and and hopefully we've got the balance exactly right this show but yeah thanks to Matt thanks to Byron thanks to everybody else we'll see you um next week which will be on the uh 15th I think is something like that is it yeah 15th i i'd have been at Westland Fulham the night before so um you know I um we'll record it before I see West Ham Fulham bar probably in a pretty source fans hard you trying to Westland fan I was in the four the four the four stages of of um of pain is stepping on Lego giving birth getting kicked in the nap for supporting West Ham and about what Sarassans are doing at the moment in mindful and being ready for the football side it's not a pretty place at the moment. But yeah no thank you everybody for listening and we'll see you next week um for another edition of the best card we'll uh we'll we'll have to get John on for the West Ham vs Spurs game and you two can cry at each other for hours. Yeah that that wouldn't be pretty I don't think no it's like coming in then though absolutely well anyway thanks everybody and see you next week