S4 E30: Nice One Sarries...

Showdown Shellacking?

Jez is showing his age here with a reference to a novelty tune from the early 70s...

On top of discussing a very one sided affair in Tottenham, there's a bumper analysis of the opening gambit of the Women's Six Nations!

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Title Music (from Season 4): "Herald" by This Winter Machine

Transcript

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SPEAKER_03 0:03

You're listening to the Fezcast, produced on behalf of the Saras and Supporters Association and featuring the independent f this is your emergency broadcast system.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

This is your emergency broadcast system.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

We apologize for the temporary loss of transmission. We are now returning to the Fez Kids.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

And then following that, Joe and I are going to have a chat about our relative success and predictions and the games themselves. So plenty to look forward to. Hope you enjoy the show.

SPEAKER_06 1:35

You're listening to the Fezcast. Listening to the Fest Cast.

SPEAKER_04 1:38

Hi, Alex Osterberry here, director of Ruby for Saracens Women. You're listening to the Saracens Festcast.

SPEAKER_07 1:44

This is the Festcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Joe and I have recorded this last Wednesday, three days before the um the Women's Six Nations uh kicks off, and we're kind of doing a review, preview. I have no idea how we what we're going to call it, Joe, but the Women's Six Nations has started last weekend, so we'll have a quick brief talk about the other three games that will have been played this weekend and prove that I know as little about women's rugby as I do men's rugby when it comes to predicting uh in national games. But Joe, I mean, you're obviously looking forward to the women's six nations. I I take it you'll go to a fair few games.

SPEAKER_04 2:22

Oh well, I'm hoping to, but you well, work is work, so we will we will see how we we get along. Um the good news is that that that the games are being broadcast on either BBC, BBC iPlayer, BBC Sport across those kind of platforms as well. So all the games will be available for people to watch, so every cloud uh uh and such like so some big games ahead, I think.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Well, indeed. I mean well, let's talk about the teams first, shall we, Joe? Because I think it's important to have a look. And I mean, we discussed before we come out on it what and what way we're doing it and everything. And I think we need to start with England's got 10 Saracens players in them, and congratulations to May being called up um to cover for Ali Cocaine as well. I you know, Ali gets gets well soon as well, gets better soon. But yeah, I mean England are going into this as favourites, I would imagine. I mean, they've they've won the tournament the last few years, although you know, for the last five years indeed, um new coach in John Mitchell, and I mean I'll I'll say something about that in a bit as well. But okay, we got France away, France aren't a bad side. Uh, I suppose the question is, Joe, do you think that England can get any better than they've already been playing at over the last five years? And if they can't get too much better, and I think it is only very small increment or increases that perhaps they can make, how much closer are the likes of Wales, Scotland, and France in particular going to be to them? And how close a tournament do you think it will be for England?

SPEAKER_04 3:58

Yeah, well, I mean, if I start off with England first, yeah, obviously Grand Slam winners last year, they're going for six in a row now, world number one, uh, lost the World Cup as we know to New Zealand, but then beat them in the WXV uh one league this year. So, you know, they're they're doing really well. We've got a couple of big returners, so um Emily Scarrot returns for the first time in England shirt, probably for the best part of their year, 18 months, I would guess. Really experienced pack, you know. We know that their driving mall is just awesome. They've got a load of speedsters, including some of our very own. And you mentioned their 10 Sarries, you've got Poppy, Kelsey, Rosie, Sophie Bridger, um, Jess Breach, Sidney gets a return in an England shirt, Zoe Harrison back after her injury, Ella is in there, and as you mentioned before, SSA sponsored Mae Campbell being pulled in at the last minute to cover for Amy. Um, and not least of all, Marley captained in the squad again, and we'll get her a hundredth cap if she runs out this weekend. So she may well have already got it by the time this broadcast goes out. But um, you know, there's just so much skill across the team in the in the forwards and in the backs. I don't think there's really an area of weakness if I'm being brutally honest, and I think they'll be very difficult to be. You only have to look at the squad, most of them playing in the PWR at the top level, um, and have done for some time. The ability for John Mitchell, who I know we'll chat about in a minute, to move those players across several positions because of the diversity of the players playing across the back line, across the pack. Uh, it's just I I don't think it's going to be an easy tournament, and we'll cover the other teams in a second, but I find it very difficult to look past England for the championship again this year, if I'm honest.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Well, in which case, then that begs the question. Um, you know, in the same way as I spoke about Ireland's in the men's rugby, perhaps not achieving what they should have done in not winning a grand slam. Is a championship enough? Or are they still so far ahead that there is an expectation? As I say, bearing in mind we're going to France, who have improved over the last two or three years, and you know, uh continues to improve. We've got some quality players there as well. But is a grand slam the minimum? And when I say minimum, you know, the the best would be a grand slam with us just walking games and bringing in lots of players and giving them lots more experience.

SPEAKER_04 6:41

I think for the women's game, I think it would be a shame if England completely tramps everyone and walk away with it. I think the Grand Slam is on the cards. I think there's definitely some work for John Mitchell in terms of the next step for them. I'm gonna make an assumption is they've clearly got another WXV tournament in between the Six Nations, the next one, and the big one for next year in next autumn with the World Cup, which is being hosted in England. So that's gonna be the goal, but they need the stepping stones to do that. So it's a perfect opportunity, giving the the young players that they've had coming through the PWR this year. I think it's a really good opportunity for him to blood some of those players. They've got the likes of Sarah Hunter in the coaching team now as well, who's got plenty of experience playing at that level. So whilst you've got all of that experience in there, and we've talked about Marley, you talk about Zoe Allcroft, Abby Ward, all of those really experienced players that have played in numerous World Cups and Six Nations championships. Um, you know, Alex Matthews, Hannah Bottman, Sarah Beckett, they're all really established players. I think there's also an opportunity for some of these games to bring some of these younger players through, those that are going to be there in 2025 for the World Cup and you know, Ella Vivash, Sophie Bridger, there's just so many that they that are in that young bracket that that could do with some experience at that international level to get them prepped for next year. And I think that would be a really good opportunity for for John Mitchell to do that.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Well, again, and there's another correlation with the men's team in England, isn't it? The fact that there is an evolution, as I've said on many occasions, not a revolution, but it's important that you have that mixture of experience bringing through the youngsters. Very much what's like's happened at Saracens and perhaps at Gloucester as well, uh, where there is a lot of experienced players at that club. But again, you've got youngsters coming through, and that's all good for it. Um, for me, the jury stood out on John Mitchell as um as an appointment. Personally speaking, I'm not sure whether he's a coach of 10-15 years ago when the men's game was really good, and whether they're looking at women's rugby and saying that's where they're at, the standard they're at, which I think is unfair because I think the standard is actually a lot closer and is getting closer all the time. Um, you know, it's just it's just size and physicality that's really the huge difference between them. Skill levels, um, commitment, dedication, whatever, they're all there the same. Um, we've got to give him this tournament. And as I say, you know, I mean, judge him on this tournament. I'm I'm sure that you know, John Mitchell being the age he is, is he only here to get us through to the next World Cup? And then the likelihood of someone like a Sarah Hunter coming in into that coaching role, which I think would be a great step, because you know, as we said many times before, Joe, there is only one female coach at international level in the Six Nations, and that's not really good enough, is it?

SPEAKER_04 9:55

No, and I think you know the stepping stones are starting to come through now. You see, you know, a lot of um female coaches starting to come into those international setups now. As you mentioned there, Gil Gail Mignot, um you know, previous French International is joint head coach for the French team for this champs, but the the rest of them are all male coaches, and you know, I'm not saying that females should get the job if they're not the best for the job, but uh, you know, the opportunities I think are starting to be there now more for female coaches, and you know, the likes of Sarah Hunter and others, and some of those names that we've talked about who are experienced who are maybe looking at retiring in four years' time, will hopefully look into perhaps going to the coaching realms themselves. So the likes of um Marley and Poppy and others, um, because I know that they they already do a lot of coaching already for you know at grassroots rugby. So it's about promoting that game, and that's across the board, really. I think um, not just the English English players, you know, the PWR league has enticed a lot of um Welsh, Scottish and Irish players to come and play in the league, and I think that has has probably helped um those teams bring their level up at an international game because it is without doubt probably one, if not the best league in the world for playing women's rugby at club level.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Well, indeed. Well, look, we've discussed the wider tournament, and and I think there is a time where we can discuss the other teams in the Six Nations outside of England in relation to the games that they will have played this weekend. So we can have a look at our predictions abilities, if that's all right, um uh Joe, and uh see where we go from there. Because I mean, looking at this weekend, the first game on this weekend is France versus Ireland in France, and you know, with the greatest respect of Ireland, they they're a little bit behind the ball at the moment, aren't they? Uh Grace is good, it's Grace, isn't it? Is it from us is in our in the squad? You know, you she's a uh quality player who perhaps isn't getting the opportunities she's expecting at Saracens because we've got such a profusion of of great back row players and second row players at the club. But yeah, you know, uh Ireland's what what can they hope to achieve in this tournament? I mean, what what would what would you think would constitute a good tournament for them?

SPEAKER_04 12:25

Well, last year they were they were last season's uh wooden spooners, unfortunately, didn't come away with a win in last year's championship. So, but they did they had a really good tournament in WXV3 and came out champions of the WXV. So um in that league. So I think a step up for them would just be getting a win or some wins on the on the board for themselves. You mentioned Grace there, they've got some really quality players, as I've said, meant mentioned who play in the in the PWR. Um Sam Monahan for Gloucester Hartbury's been absolutely immense over the last 18 months. They've got a lot of their Irish Sevens players returning for the tournament this year. Um, a lot of them didn't play last year, but um, I think some of that might be to do with the prep um going towards uh the Olympics. I can't remember whether our Irish Sevens have qualified for the Olympics, but I'll make an assumption that they have. Um, and you know, Ireland later in the tournament got a really big game at Twickenham where England hosts them um I think back end of April um for the big game where hopefully we can draw a really, really big crowd, um, you know, similar to the 58,000 that were that were there for the England France game last year. So um I think for Ireland uh a win and some good performances, I think, um, with Scott Beaman at the helm. Um they've got some really quality players, and I'd like to see them um do alright this year.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Well, absolutely. And and then looking at their opponents on Saturday, France. I mean, France away is a difficult game for anybody, even England, and we talked about that already. Uh, but that's not a great start for them, is it? I mean, but but France, I mean, do you see them really challenging? I mean, last year at Twicken and they came close, and then we just sort of pulled away. They they, you know, it was 60 65 minutes, went before England really, really got on top of the game. Um, you know, are France taking another step? Are they equipped to really compete with England at this level?

SPEAKER_04 14:30

Do you know what? They've had some really, really good wins um in WXV. Um, you know, they're world number three at the minute. Um the player of the tournament last year was French, Gabrielle Vernier. Um, and they've had a couple of retirees. So Jessie Tremoulier has retired at the end of the Twickenham game last year. Um, but all of their players, with the exception of one who I'm going to mention in a minute, because I think she's probably my young player of the tournament to watch for this year. Um, they all play in in the French league. So, you know, again, they're all playing together or opposite each other um week in, week out. So I think that will help that helps them. They've got so much experience again in the team with their Scrum off Borden Saint Zeus. Uh, you've got the Menager sisters, um, Caroline Drain, who's been playing on the seventh circuit for France, is brilliant. She'll slot nicely into that 10-shirt um instead of Tremoulier. And you've got a pair of sisters in the captain, Mano Falou, in the squad this year. Um it's not going to be an easy trip for anyone, including England, to go to France, the last game of the of the competition. Um, so I think it'll be really competitive. I think they're probably closer than they have been in a number of years. So I'm really looking forward to that game, I think.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Yeah, they're moving on to the second game on the weekends, Wales versus Scotland, which I think is probably the tie of the weekends. And it's very much whoever wins this game puts themselves in prime position for that third spot, maybe more dependent. But you know, both teams will be targeting this match as the big match to win, won't they? And there's gonna be plenty of Saracens um involvement in that. Obviously, Donna and Georgia with Wales, and then the the four girls um for Scotland from us, isn't it? I mean, it's good it's uh it's gonna be that's gonna be a butt and a half, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 16:37

It's always a close game, Wales and Scotland, and you know, it's always really really competitive. Wales have edged, I think, the last two or three, but only by three, four, maybe. I think the last last season, I think they beat them by 10-12 points, but they're always really, really close encounters. And you know, the four Sarrys that you mentioned there, you've got Corinne, you've got Lou McMillan, you've got Beth Blacklock and Fi McIntosh um uncapped. Um, all who have been on the SSA Feds cast, I have to say, in the last 12 months. So um we'll give them a really big shout out. Um, it's gonna be really competitive, couple of retirements, big retirements for Wales, and Sean Harris and uh Eleanor Snowzhill. Um, so they're gonna be missing uh those, but still plenty of experience. Alex Callender, Alicia Butcher's Joyce, Jazz Joyce is taking a break from GB7s before she goes back for the squad for the Olympics, no doubt. And um, one of the big ones for me is Shona Wakeley, um, Ney Powell Hughes, um, who's making a first appearance back in a Welsh shirt for four years, um, did really well in the Celtic Challenge, playing for Brighton Thunder for anyone that watched um that competition. Um, so yeah, I think, and again from Scotland, they've got some of their GB7 speeders who uh who are returning as well to support the team who weren't necessarily available last year. Shona Campbell, Lisa Thompson, Rona Lloyd to name just a few. Jake Conkle Roberts is going to be missing for them. This um this tournament she recovers from injury. Um, but they've got so much speed in their in their back line, um, which is going to be really difficult for Wales to to encounter. Um, Fran McGee, who set the world alight in WHV with her speed, she's just been brilliant in the last six months. Um, and Chloe Raleigh. I mean, they're just they're just so so speedy, and they've got a brilliant hooker in Lana Skeldon, who is just like a try machine. So, again, it's gonna be really, really competitive. I'm really looking forward to that game as well. It's gonna be great.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Right. Well, but let's let's let's just put it out there now, then. So we're saying France for a win, we're saying um England for a win against Italy, obviously. Um Wales Scotland, they were your colours to the mast, and then when we do the outro on this show after this bit, we can say whether you got it right or wrong. And I'll go the opposite to you, watch every way you go, I'll go the opposite.

SPEAKER_04 18:59

Oh, I'm gonna go Wales by five.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Well, I'm going Scotland by ten, just for the hell of it. I just I just I've liked the way that Scotland have really developed, and I think their pack might just be the the the difference. And I think if they if they if they get their pack right and get some supremacy there, and as I say, with the with the speed they have got available to them, they could just do it. But then again, I could completely and utterly um be uh well off of there, and I will be laughing at myself we're gonna face. Let's have a quick look forward to uh the for um what's coming up, as it say, this weekend's coming because not this weekend coming, but you know what I mean, and um yeah, uh the the games we got coming on the Easter weekend is Saturday. I'm gonna be down in Bristol, me and Shaza. Are you gonna be in Bristol for England Wales? Well, excellent. Well, we'll meet you for a point. I've got me um park and ride tickets sorted at the portway and everything. That's gonna be, I mean, Wales, it's one of those, isn't it? Wales will always get up for England, and I expect that to be a lot closer again this year than than that it hasn't been in previous years because it's been getting closer and closer and closer and closer. And I do think, although I said I've um I've gone Scotland because of um just to be awkward in the week before, um, Wales is the one team I think that are showing the improvement. A lot to do with giving out professional contracts, and indeed a lot of Welsh players, particularly playing at Gloucester, because it's close by, Bristol, and you know, our two at Saracens as well. There's there's a lot of players who are who are getting greater exposure, not only to playing, but also to more professional training and the ability to train more often. So I think that gap's closing. And eventually at some point, Wales may be the next team to to step up there and take that on. Scotland have got France at home, and again, you know, like we said, um, Wales, Scotland, they target each other. Scotland have got to be targeting that as well. I mean, there's there's two pretty tough games, but if you're at home, you've got to target that game, haven't you, Joe?

SPEAKER_04 21:07

Oh, absolutely. And you know, that's gonna be again, I think, uh closer than it's ever been before. Both those teams have got a load of speed that are just gonna set the game alight. I think it could be a really, really open game, end to end. Um uh so I'm yeah, I'm really looking forward to that one as well. And you know, I I think Scotland are gonna run them quite close um in that game against France.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Yeah, absolutely. And then on Sunday, it's Ireland versus Italy, and we've we discussed it already about Ireland, what are their hopes uh and ambitions this year? That's the one game, isn't it? They need to get that win. And if they get that win at home against Italy, that then builds a bit more confidence going into to the next games they've got coming up in the tournament.

SPEAKER_04 21:56

Yeah, absolutely. You know, uh we've talked about the Irish team, the Italy seventh in the world at the minute. They've got some quality players. You only have to mention Beatrice Ragoni's name, who's now playing over in the PWR, along with a couple of other of their um a couple of the other Italian players in in the league. She just exudes cool, turns up at the games in her sunglasses, even though it might be cloudy and raining and her flip-flops. Fantastic player, pulls the strings. Michaela Silari is there kicking off the T centre. Again, really, really good. Broke Welsh hearts with a last-minute penalty in 2022, and I was at that game at Cardiff's Arms Park in the 79th minute. I think there's about three seconds left to go. Both of them are going to have uh strong packs um going forward there as well, I think.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Well, Joe, plenty to look forward to, isn't it? And I'm sure obviously we will revisit uh the Women's Six Nations over the next four to five weeks, or however long uh it's on it finishes the end of April, doesn't it? So uh we got about five, six weeks of some really top quality rugby. And as I say, we've got tickets to the England Wales game. Um might even, you know, if we can, we'll look to go to a couple more, perhaps if we can, whatever. But you know, it's well worth checking out on the TV as well. Um, and you know, and enjoying that competition because I think it's gonna be absolutely fantastic this year, Joe.

SPEAKER_04 23:33

It's gonna be brilliant. You know, it's the the women's game is rising all the time, and for the first time, um, bunker system will feature for the first time along with shot clock. Um, so we've got that to contend with. So that'll be interesting for the referees. Um, every player will have their name on the back of the jersey again for the first time, I think. So the professionalism of the game, and I think the final thing that that they've got is the instrumental mouth guard. So it's starting to move up there, you know, alongside um the men's game in terms of understanding um that people want to come and watch women's rugby. Um they said that they wouldn't, but they do. Um, and I recommend if our listeners haven't been and watched um a women's rugby game, whether it's a club game or an international, they should get themselves there because it's an absolutely fantastic day out. Um, the rugby is just absolutely brilliant, and certainly the squads that we've discussed there, there's going to be absolutely some some sterling games, some really competitive games um this year um in the Six Nations.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Well, Joe, I think I'd better let you go off and sit in the darkened corner uh and uh and uh calm the excitement down that obviously you you you're like you're like a kitty on Christmas Eve, aren't you waiting for this to happen?

SPEAKER_04 24:46

I've got to go and try and plan my fantasy team now. That's not that's not gonna be the biggest headache going on. So um, yes, also for our listeners, get yourselves on the fantasy team. Um, they run it as very similar to the one that the men's run for the Guinness Six Nations. So, again, sponsored by Guinness The Women's Six Nations. Uh, it's available on all good websites and um really really um good fun as well.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Absolutely, absolutely right. Thank you for that, Joe, and we'll hand back to whatever's going on in the um the other side of the podcast.

SPEAKER_07 25:21

Hi, this is Petrus de Blassi, and you are listening to the Fizz cast.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Well, yeah, as I said, um at the top of the show, joining me for this part is Joe. After our review, preview. Uh what do we call it last time? Well, we had a chat last week, did we, Joe, which we just played and talked about it. And yeah, I got I got the uh the big prediction right, didn't I? Ish.

SPEAKER_04 25:44

Not one of the predictions right, you know, you know, we weren't too far off. It was a close game.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Well, yeah, and I think that's that's what we said, wasn't it? That France, Scotland, oh sorry, Wales, Scotland was gonna be the real tough match to call the the the the the the game of of the round, and so it turned out to be. I mean, as as I understand, a full-blooded, fully competitive, uh, you know, the result could have gone either way, right up to the very end. But well done to Scotland for coming down to Wales and getting that very important win for them. That really does set them up for this tournament, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_04 26:22

Oh, I mean it does. I mean, I think I think they said it was saying it's their first first win in in Wales in the Six Nations for the for the women in 20 odd years. So, you know, that's a it's a real long time. I think the last time they had um uh a win was when it was Five Nations before Italy joined. So um, you know, that's a that's a long time for them to to to wait for that win, and there has been some close games in the past, and you know, this game was was no different, and you know, it came down to it. I thought it was going to be a draw and the conversion in the last couple of minutes just just slid wide of the post, and you know, it is what it is. I think both teams played really well, both showed some really good um uh some really good go forward. Um, and yeah, honestly, either either team I think could could have won that game. Um, and I have to say, um, and I will give her a massive shout out because again, she's been a guest on the first cast as well. Corrie and Grant was absolutely outstanding, and the commentators, the Welsh commentators, Shuan Lilly Crap included, were absolutely raving about um Corrie. Now we've already always known about her skill and the Scottish Flyer, but um she really really did show um how much she's come on in the last 12-18 months um this year.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Yeah, absolutely, and that was really good to see, isn't it? Now Scotland have got France up next um at home. France who, you know, Ireland's made them work hard, but they they looked they looked fully on it, you know, and credit to Ireland who's showing improvement again, but you know, France weren't really troubled, were they, particularly?

SPEAKER_04 28:07

No, they they weren't, and you know, I don't think the score line necessarily reflected how well Ireland did in defence, if I'm being brutally honest, having having watched the game. Um I think they did really, really well. Um, you know, France's handling errors were you know, every two minutes they're they're handling juggling the ball all over the place. And yes, somebody could some could argue that it was a bit damp over there in in France, and handling the ball was not the easiest thing, but but you know, um I don't think they would want to say that that was it was an excuse. Some of their handling I think was poor. Um, I think Ireland did um some really good work in terms of of their defence and and keeping the score line uh to what it did. And you know, they had some again, they had some pretty good go forward when they had the opportunities as well. So, you know, I think they will be happy and see that as a as a win from their point of view and got what they wanted out of the game in terms of showing that they have the capability to battle for a full 80 minutes because they never stop trying.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Well, indeed. Now, Wales obviously disappointed after that game, but as you say, they played well enough to suggest that you know they're gonna cause problems as well. And they've got England up next. Uh, quite frankly, England's really disappointed me against Italy. Uh, really disappointed me uh for a number of reasons, really. I mean, yeah, Emily Scarrot, great player, absolute legend of the game, but she's played what 20 minutes of rugby, it seems, before being chucked straight back into the into the international game. And she just wasn't at the races, was she?

SPEAKER_04 29:55

No, and I think you know that's that's a coaching decision. You can't really necessarily blame that blame the player. She's been out with injury for a good 12 months, serious injury, surgery on her neck. Um, and she is a fantastic player when she's when she's on her game. Um, but she has been out. Um, and like any player who's been out um for that length of time, it's gonna take a little bit of time for them to get back in. She's played a couple of games for a um club uh Loughborough Lightning. Um but we know that that is a completely different ball game than play playing at international level, not least for the players that are around you all the time. Um, and that's not disrespectful to Loughborough Lightning. Um, but you know, when you're playing for England, you're playing with people that are all at the top of their game. Um, and I think she was perhaps just a couple of steps behind um some of those, some of those other players, and maybe she'll get there in this tournament um with a little bit of of match play, and perhaps the only way is to get her in the into some matches to do it.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

I'm not just sure that starting her in that first game was um the best decision from the coaching team, but you know, they're international coaches, and and I'm not, and and you're not, but um yeah, I think um I just think it sends out the wrong message, Joe, that there's there's girls who've been playing all season, and you know, we've got a couple at our club, and you see um centres at other clubs as well who've really been performing well this season, and suddenly Emily Scarra on Reputation comes straight back in ahead of them. You know, where's that's a kick in the T to players who've worked really hard and deserve, you know, and and as I say, no disrespect to Emily, but they deserve that place ahead of her.

SPEAKER_04 31:44

I think picking on form is always a better way to go, and it shows the value of people that are performing week in and week out. Um, you know, and reputations can only go so far, and that's why people like us pick up on when people aren't perform performing at their best because their reputation does precede them. But when you're seeing paid people play at club level, week in, week out, at a high level, um, and you mention people there, I don't mind name dropping her. I think Sydney Gregson was unlucky to miss out in this squad because she has been brilliant. And I'm not saying that just because she's a Sarys player, I think there were several other people that I think um have missed out that don't play for Sarres that perhaps should have been considered in in that lineup um as well against Italy. And we talked about it in our review show. I think it's a really good opportunity to blood some of those younger players and some of those players that have actually been on form um in the PWR this season.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Yeah, indeed. Now, the other issue with England, again, it's really its ugly head, is discipline. Sarah Becky, um well, 10 minutes into the game, and the crocodile role, uh slight mitigation which might come in when it comes to the disciplinary, is that I think she realized what she was doing and tried to stop, but by then the damage had been done, and it was very lucky that the the girl wasn't hurt even more than what she was and was able to continue and play, but it did look nasty, and yeah, uh it was a moment uh well I won't say madness because I don't think that's fine, but uh uh fair, but it was a moment where you know I think um uh Katie McLean in in in in commentary said about the top two inches and develop that top two inches, you know, that uh what Clyde Woodward always used to call the most important part of a rugby player. And it was a just a little bit a little bit brainless, really, almost in that situation. You know, you train all day, every day, you're professional players. You know, uh me as a player, I might have done it because I, you know, was training once a week or whatever. But if you're doing it in day in, day out, you know in those situations what you can and cannot do and should be able to be better than that, I think.

SPEAKER_04 34:01

Yeah, I think they've made no bones about it for particularly for this tournament. They've mentioned it in the PWR as well. You know, the officials are hot on uh neck rolls, they're hot on um crocodile roles, they're high um on those high tackles and and the headshots for the concussion protocols, you know, and players are aware of that because their team managers must be telling them that week in, week out. Um, and so must the international coaches be telling them, you know, here's what the the officials are going to be looking out for. I mean, we can analyse the slow-mo all day, and it looked awful in slow-mo, and the position that Michaela Sillary for the tackle, she was in a really brilliant position for the tackle. Sarah Beckett's come over the top to try and um, you know, get rid of her out of that of that position. And I think you're right, you know, I think she she realised where she was going, but by that point her forward momentum had already taken her so far past the point. Um, and I think the only probably one of the main reasons that she the play the Italian player was not seriously injured was because Sarah Beckett realised it and managed to sort of roll her body weight in uh away from the player rather than fully over the top of her. Um, because I I think that probably could have ended um Sillery's Six Nations champ uh championship for this year. Um you know it it was a silly, it was a silly tackle, and you know, I think she you she realised it, and I think probably even Marley Packer when the the the referee had that conversation with us, she realised that it was probably heading that way as soon as she called for a punk bunker review. And you know, we mentioned it in the preview bunker system coming for the Six Nations. Um whether she'd have given a straight red if the bunker had not been in here, I I don't know. You know, only um Marilee Grossolo will know that, but um you know that the tackle was was not good um from a professional, and I and I suspect that there was no malice intended from Sarah Beckett. She's she from from what I've seen of her play for for Quinn's and and Gloucester, she's not a malicious player. Um and I think there was you know evidenced in in the commentary as well. But I think and hopefully she'll learn from that. And obviously they had a yellow card towards the end of the game as well, with um Helena Rowland going and over the top, and you know, the the the shoulder making contact with the head again, trying to clear out from a um from a ruck. And you know, players are gonna have to watch this, not just the English players, all the players are gonna have to watch this now because the referees, the officials are really starting to to pick up on this. The TMOs are gonna be at every games as well, something that they're perhaps not used to for in the PWR week in and week out. So, you know, professional players, semi-professional players, those that are playing in this tournament are gonna have to understand that you know tackling, um, clear out, they're they're all gonna they're all high on on the agenda of of the officiating teams and and the TMOs, and they will pick them up. And you know, I think the the men's men's game has found found that. I remember, you know, we talked about this probably 12-18 months ago in the men's game with the big spike in TMO reviews and going back and the yellow cards and the red cards. The the women's game is a little bit further behind that, but they're gonna have to go through that same pain now until the message hits home about ensuring that they're protecting themselves and and each other whilst they're they're playing the game.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

So indeed, yeah. I mean, uh, but what we do have to say is for all of that, um, and they say England player most of the game with four team players and a big chunk with 13 players, they found solutions, so it's not all bad. And when it when it clicks, I mean Eddie Kildone got um player of the match. I mean, she's caught up trick, and I mean her first try where she just carved through like a hot knife through butter, was uh or was it her second try? Okay, we should there was one of the tries which was just outstanding. But I'm a bit sorry for Jess Breach and Happy Dow because every time they got the ball, they were they were obviously targeted as danger players and were marked out of it. Um, and you know, not wishing to harp on about Emily Scarrot, but when uh she was replaced, we suddenly went through the middle a lot quicker because the Italian defence was going wise, and we spotted there were gaps in the middle, and we went through it and scored twice that way. Um uh say Sadia could be uh she was awesome on the flank, I thought she had a really, really fine game, and um Abby Ward as well. Um second row, you know, 10 minutes after giving birth. I mean, Jesus, that's that's some some comeback, you know, when it's all about injuries and everything to do that. So there were plenty of good performances there. I think um Mohone coming on as well made a bit of a difference for the speed at the ruck as well, which you know one of those things. I think Packer had a pretty solid game with considering that she had a pack that was down to seven players for most of the game, you know. So there's plenty there to to to um to look and say, yeah, okay, it wasn't quite as bad. I was just a little bit disappointed, and you you know, you hope to see England deterrently slow at starting tournaments, men and women often. Uh so you hope to see improvement. And yeah, the interesting thing is next week we got Wales on Saturday, and we're both going to be down in Bristol. The Welsh um frequently in previous games have really targeted the English and got niggly, haven't they? And and and live on the edge, but you know, it's that game they get up for everywhere, you know, with the TMOs, with this highlight. I I it wouldn't surprise me to see some disciplinary problems next week, um, Joe.

SPEAKER_04 40:02

It's definitely going to be a fiery counter. I think from John Mitchell's point of view, he'll be happy um that they managed to keep um Italians off the scoreboard. So in defence, they were they were rock solid. Um, because the Italians are no slouch in in wanting to score, they chose not to take points when they were perhaps available to them from the T. Um, but you know, from a positive point of view, perhaps the one player less gave them more space to uh explore that. I mean again, you know, the the score line probably didn't justify Zoe was not at the top of her game off the kicking tee for one reason or another. Um, so she was probably a little bit disappointed and a little bit frustrated um with her with her kicking performance off the tee, um, but that's because she's world-class at it normally. Um so I expect I expect Zoe to bounce back in in that respect. But you know, when you've got the likes of Helena Rowland and um others that can play in that first receiver position, you you've mentioned a few of them there, Sally Cabea. I agree with you. Um Abby Ward was absolutely superb, and I think she was probably a contender for player the match as well. And I have to say, um, somebody else who I was really oppressed with, um, who never fails to impress me, to be perfectly honest, is was Hannah Potterman. Box was just brilliant um in the front row there with her go forward, and the moment that that um England went down to uh 14 players, it seemed to ignite her, and she just she almost took on right. Well, I'm gonna play for two people then because her drive forward was just absolutely superb. And Hannah, probably by her own admission, has sometimes been guilty of a few infractions herself. I thought she played a blinder and she was she did it um in a way that kept herself out of trouble, and she was just really up for it, I think. Um, so I mean, fair play to her from that point of view. Some of the substitutions that came on, Mac got a uh a nice little try for herself as well. And I thought Kelsey Clifford in her first first England start um was was brilliant as well. She had some fabulous turnovers at the breakdown as well. Um, but yeah, for for this weekend coming, um, I think yes, with Alex Callender um from the well side, who we know that can be a bit a little bit fiery amongst others. Um Georgia as well will both be no doubt up for the game. Uh, I thought she was brilliant against Scotland when she came on, um, and I would expect um her to start um this this weekend, um, given her performance coming on at uh just after halftime. So um, yes, it there will certainly be um some interesting competition across the park, I think, is is the best way um to describe that. They'll play against each other week in, week out at club level, the English and the Welsh. So um, yes, I think it will be the team that keeps their head um and doesn't end up with people walking from the pitch that will come out on top at the weekend, and I think that will be drummed in by both the head coaches this week.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

Absolutely, yeah. Well, so plenty to look forward to there, Joe, and thank you again for your time tonight, and thank you for your preview. And we'll we'll reconvene next week and um have a chat. Well, maybe we might get a chance on on Saturday after the game to have a quick chat about it and see what we could do. But yeah, thank you, Joe, for your time, and we'll have a quick uh short break, and then we'll be back to discuss uh the showdown four and uh a mighty win for the Saracens.

SPEAKER_07 43:55

You're listening to the Feds cast, listening to the Feds cast.

SPEAKER_03 44:02

You're listening to the podcast, which is proudly sponsored by the Starstone Supporters Association. And I'm Alison Davis, one of the SSA committee. For £10 annual subscription, the SSA provides our members with monthly newsletters, virtual and in-person player events, away match ticket allocations, and we organise pre-match gatherings at away matches. We sponsor men's and women's players and we support the Taracons Foundation track club on behalf of our members. On top of all that, every year we have a seasonal SSA badge, which is exclusive to members. Where else can you get that much value for a tenor? Join now at membermojo.co.uk forward slash SSA. Or come and see us on match day in the Oasis at the Stonex.

SPEAKER_07 44:52

This is the Fetcast.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Nice one, Saris. Nice one, son. Nice one, Saris. We've gotta want another one. Hello, Duncan, how are you doing? What a great weekend that was, eh?

SPEAKER_02 45:05

Brilliant, wasn't it? Yeah, really, really good. Hands up, everybody who predicted we put 50 points on Quinn's.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Absolutely not. I mean, but uh, yeah, no, there was a a bit of a uh a throwback to the 60s when Spurs had a team that used to win stuff with nice one Silver. But yeah, nice one, Sarry's a nice one. Well, Faz in particular. What a what a great I mean I've never been to the Spud stadium, and I'll be honest with you, it does stick him across a little bit to say how wonderful it was, being that he's in enemy country, as I mentioned last week. But it is a fantastic stadium, and the experience the whole day was absolutely fantastic. A bit of a long walk to get there from the shuttle bus, and an even longer walk to get back to Seven Sisters Station to get the cheap back across London.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

But did you get into Seven Sisters Station? We I tried to get home that way and gave up, ended up on a bus to Mornington Crescent or something. So it was a bit of a round trip getting home.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Well, me and Shaz left a little bit early. I mean, I think we'd seen enough, you know, it was like, I mean, if it'd been a boxing match, it would have been it would have been called off after round three, wouldn't it? Somebody would have thrown a towel in. And actually, when when they they showed on the TV the the coach's box, the for the for the quins, and he looks at it, and you thought they have thrown a towel in because they just looked absolutely, absolutely clueless, didn't they?

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Do you know it hardly there was once or twice they were threatening our line? That was it, wasn't it? The rest of the game seemed to be taking place in their half. It was it was and and it wasn't just the amazing attacking play, it was the defense. Defense was fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Well, this is the thing, isn't it? Now, on the train back, myself and Shaz were there, we got chatting to a couple of um Quinn's lads, and um, and just you know, not crowing or nothing like that because I don't uh I actually felt slightly embarrassed for Quinn's fans. You spent a lot of money to go over there, and I couldn't work out whether it was that Saracens were so good or whether Quinn's were bad, and I think there's an element of both, and I I don't really wish to diss down another team, but I've got to say, I thought Quinn's their senior players were unprofessional, and I mean I'll go through the list. Danny Kare typified it at the end of the first half where they'd had a bit of a go, they'd had a penalty, then they got a line out, and Danny K decided to kick the ball out, and you looked at his body language, and quite frankly, it was abysmal. I mean, he just looked as if he was. I think he turned round and probably said to Alex Donbrand, he said, Is the coach running? Can we just go and bugger off home now? And you know, and then you Andre Estrahausen, I think he's playing for whoever he's playing for next season. He wasn't interested at all. Um, Joe Marler, I mean, Joe Marler's been playing Six Stations rugby for the last six weeks. So why does he look so fat and slow and just walking around the pitch? I mean, Joe Launchby was putting effort in, but he looks like he's been on the beach for six weeks. He he put on a stone and a half in way, and he, although he was giving the effort, he just wasn't there. And you know, that then permeated down into those younger players. And I'll include Marcus Smith as one of those younger players. Marcus was trying things, he was just getting flattened every time he tried to do something, as you say, the defensive super, but you know, Caden Murley, Tyrone Green, they're great players.

SPEAKER_02 48:25

Oscar Beard, they've had a really good season, but there was a lot of talk, wasn't there, about how rusty everybody would be, and but and and we certainly weren't, we were right on it, which reminded me of you know, we're often really great at the beginning of a season after a good pre-season. We we often come in flying, and it and it felt like that. Whereas mentally, as you say, for Quinn's the best body language. Um, I I I saw on the screen at half time when I was queuing up for a drink. I don't know whether it's TNT or or ITV it was on, but that hairy Welshman they've got as one of their coaches, the look on his face as the Quinn's players were coming in was sort of like, what the F in hell have you lot been doing out there? It was just a picture.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

What I mean in his face. I mean, the other player, two players I'm gonna call out here, Alex Donbrand, who just I mean, reminded me very much of remember years ago on a rugby tour to Poland, we played the Polish police force, who were all six foot four and eighteen stone, proper to fall back, and they were riot police. We played them and half time. We'd been out at the lash night before, and we were drinking vodka Red Bull. Uh, it was 10 pounds for a bottle of vodka and 10 Red Bulls, and you know, we were no fit state to play rugby in 100 degrees heat. And half time our captain Jen Randler said, Whatever we do, lads, we've lost the game, just win the fight. So 10 minutes into the second half, I started a fight, but I then probably lost as well because I was fighting the Polish police force. And Alex Don Brandt was that. He was he within about 10 minutes, he was just looking for someone to snout because he knew he couldn't compete. He suddenly had a cup about five minutes where he did good stuff and got his try, and he had one run and everything, but then he was looking to snout people, and the one player that really typified it more than anything else was Stephen Lewis, their captain. And it for two things happened with him. One, Christoph Ridley, who had an extremely good game, excellent referee, and thoroughly, thoroughly brilliant referee. And he talked the referees, he'd given Joe Marler the ticking off for doing the countdown and all that sort of thing. The Saracens had penalty after penalty after penalty, line out after line out after line out. And Christopher Ridley turned around to the captain and said, excuse me, next player is in the bin. Go and speak to your lads. And Stephen Lewis went off and spoke to the team, and then they had a line out, and he committed a penalty offence to the line out and got yellow carded for it. And I mean, in the words of Brian Moore, that's dim. And then second half, he should have seen red for the clear out. Well, say clear out, the cheap shot he put in on fast, that rightly rared fast right up, and quite rightly he did as well, because he just saw him on the floor and thought, I'll give him a bit of this. And Austin Heedy had spotted it, and the TMO went, Oh no, Austin Healy spotted, I'd best not do it. I think we'd best make Austin Heedy a TMO because he does spot an awful lot of these stuff.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

No, he really does. And there's an inquiry into the into what the TMO um did there because he's not meant to listen to commentary. But at least um, you know, those fights showed that Quinns had some fights in them and that they were annoyed about their own performance, so they they weren't doing it deliberately. And there is this question of why, you know, it's almost like can we play Quinns every week? Because every time we play them, we stuff them at the moment. I mean, one of these days we won't, but at the moment, then we've got the hoodoo on them.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's you know, and we think let's be uh fair to you, Quinn's. I and I said this as well. I don't think there's any team in the world who could have coped with the Saracens performance. And I'll give you uh I bring out the example, I brought up the WhatsApp group when I rewatched the game on telly, it was 19 minutes 53 seconds before Saracens made a mistake, and the mistake was huge when we're already three or four tries up trying a speculative offload that didn't come off. And to give you the the exact difference in mentality between Quinn's and Saracens, if Quins had done that, they'd have shrugged their shoulders and whatever. Owen Farrell, despite us cruising, has gone to Hugh Tisard and told him, Well, that was effing stupid, and you could see Hugh was visibly like, Yeah, I've really copped up here. I'm sorry, boss. I'm really sorry to skip. Didn't mean I was just trying something, and that's the difference, isn't it? That Saracens demanded excellence and gave excellence. Quinn's couldn't cope with that excellence.

SPEAKER_02 52:57

Well, after the game, um, you know, Faz was being interviewed and he was going on about the seven points we gave away, which is you know, yeah typical of it. Oh, by the way, uh, before I forget, I I knew I couldn't trust your judgment. So to I really know now if you're gonna go out and pick a fight with the Polish police force, you know, you really, really are as dense as I thought you were.

SPEAKER_01 53:19

Well, absolutely, yeah. I learned my lesson. Oh, yeah, the lessons of youth there, uh uh Duggar. But yeah, no, look, I mean, uh the interesting thing is when we talk about excellence, as I said, Shaz and I were talking to the guys on the tr the train backward the back, and I said to them, I said, Look, who impressed you? And they listed off the names that we're gonna go through. And I said, Who did who did you think didn't have such a great game then? You know, is it was a and they turned around and said, Well, I just thought Billy Vanopolo was a little bit off the pace. And I thought at the time I went, Yeah, I sort of see that, and then I watched the game afterwards. And Billy probably wasn't our best player, but he was still an eight out of ten, easily an eight out of ten. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 54:03

I mean, there were some turnovers he made and tackles and what have you, and a carrying with, you know, with very, very good. The end it's gonna be so interesting, isn't it? That the the the next few games, you know, Northampton away, and then Bordeaux. Good, I can't wait for that one to see what the result is gonna be. And I guess the key is gonna be around you know who is who is gonna need resting, of which you guess the candidates are definitely Nick Tomkins, Ben Earl. Marrow's already had a rest, so maybe not him. Jamie George, maybe. So, but we've got we've got cover. I mean, Marrow, we did all of that, and Marrow wasn't even playing, yeah. And Jamie, Jamie George didn't come on until like deep into the second, or not deep in the second half, but we've got we've got cover at eight between you know Tom Willison cover, Tom Willison uh uh and and Billy Vunapola. I just oh to goodness we don't put Elliot Daly at uh at centre when we give Nick Tompkins a rest, because you know, oh boy, I hate to say I told you so. Brackets no, I don't brackets, but you put Elliot Daly at the back, give him all that extra time, that extra space, give him the ability to decide where he joins the back line, and that on Saturday is what you get. And you don't just get that genius from him, he makes other players look better. Um, I mean Max Malins was a great, great player, but that combination of Elliot Daly at full back and and Faz at center made Max Malins look even better than he was, and he'd do that with players. Sean Maitland had a great, great game. Yeah, Elliot Daly made him look even better.

SPEAKER_01 55:49

It makes me wonder whether Sean's got playing playing for another year's extension on uh on Little Money, but yeah, I mean all across the park was great performances, and I and I've written down some you've mentioned Elliot Daly, quite right the man of the match. I mean, he he had his magic boots on, everything he touched, even the stuff that didn't go quite right, still came off. And I think there was one kick in particular which came off. Theo Dan, he set the tone that that run uh right at the very start, where he just went through the parting of the Red Sea almost, wasn't it? And he just set the the tone for the rest of the game. And and I think if right and the living bejesus out of um Queens, and they just didn't cope with it. Hugh Tizard, I mean, he had them the the offline didn't go right, you know, but he was still doing that engine room job with Theo McFarlane doing all these special stuff off the back of it as well. Theo had a great game, our Arjun Tinians, Juan Martin Gonzalez, Kushinsi, they're brilliant. I mean, they're frighteningly good, and I think you know, the applaudits that everybody has given Saracens is completely right. I just hope, you know, as you say, this Friday's gonna be an interesting one because Saints are coming off of a thumping by Bristol, and we've given Quinn's a thumping. You hope that we're still full throttle. And I think, you know, you as you say, next two games, Saints and Bordeaux, you're going into those games thinking, yeah, okay, let's just go full throttle, and then perhaps Gloucester is a game where maybe you give a couple of uh players a bit of a rest. But yeah, you mentioned Nick Tomkins, it's great. Nick Tomkins the week before I had a game where I gave him two out of ten for Wales, where he, you know, as I described it, he couldn't have caught a fish in Aquarium. You know, this time it just shows you the difference, isn't it? When you come into a team that's well coached with players that you respect, with players that you trust, it makes you play better. You go into a team which is badly coached with players that you don't respect and trust, you fall down to their level. And uh, and Nick was a prime example of that.

SPEAKER_02 57:57

He didn't look like the uh the Juracell bunny with a couple of cheap Chinese batteries in him, did he? Which which he did when he was playing for Wales. He looked, you know, he's had a he's had a tough, long, long season. He he he was really good. Um, yeah, that the next two games we're really gonna know where we stand, especially Bordeaux beat Toulouse at the weekend, so they haven't gone off the boil. Um it's gonna be really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 58:22

I think the Bordeaux game's an interesting one because I think with with all the will in the world, we're not going to Bordeaux expecting Saracens to be still in the European competition, and that may not be such a bad thing in relation to the Premier um League, as it were, because I think you know you want to stay in competitions as long as you possibly can, and you want to win everything you go. There's no point doing it. But going in at slight underdogs may do because I mean we remember us playing Clermont that time when we'd had a thump in before, and then we went out and absolutely destroyed them. This team, if they stay at this level, will frighten any team in Europe to lose.

SPEAKER_02 59:03

Well, the thing is that they've got so much pride, I think they'll be going there seeking revenge. Absolutely, because that was such a humiliating night.

SPEAKER_01 59:13

And I don't think even if we don't get a win in Bordeaux, but we get a performance where we make them work really, really hard and have to be the best at Bordeaux are. And let's be honest, but Bordeaux are a fabulous site, you know, no two ways about it. And then if they beat us, I fully expect them to go on and win the whole tournament potentially. Uh, but you know, as I say, we want them to work hard at the very least, and you never know then.

SPEAKER_02 59:37

I mean, as I say, there's no team in the world that could have coped with Saracen's We looked like we had the speed of attack that Bordeaux had that night, and the other thing was which we looking at the bench before last last Saturday's game, it it looked frightening again. It almost felt like the days when when you'd have um Will Skelton coming on, yeah, you know, it it felt like that, didn't it, with the people on the bench?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:06

Well, you got Jamie George on the bench, you got um uh Andy Christie. Andy Christie. Andy Christie got into my Six Nations team of the tournament, you know, uh and not through just Saras's bias because he genuinely was that bloody good.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:23

You had an Italian and a Fijian international on the bench, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:27

And wasn't it wonderful to see Marco back as well? I mean, we have missed him, uh, and you know, and and it I think also Christian Judge played really, really well, um, and did well, as did Maku. Uh and front row's been a bit of an issue. Those four guys now are if they're fit, and that's the the bones of it with Theo and Jamie between them. I don't think we've got anything to worry about for the rest of the season in front row. Nick's equy on the bench, yeah. Phenomenal, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:55

And we still got Callum Hunter Hill in reserve, you know, it's it's it's oh apart yeah, apart from centre, you know, we're looking really strong. The one um shame about Saturday, and it was uh double-edged sword because Sean Mat Maitland had such a good game, was Roti being injured, and you're thinking, Oh, you've just had an eight-week rest and you're you're injured again. Yeah, um, I just really keep my fingers crossed for him because he's such an exciting player, and I just want to see him not be injured.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:29

Yeah, absolutely, 100%. And I mean, it it is a worry when you get a player that you know it's it's a tight calf, you know. Some players will get affected by tight casts, other players will do their utmost to not be affected by it. I mean, I'm not I'm not questioning Roty's um you know commitment or anything like that, it's just that sometimes some players have that issue, some don't. And you know, I'd hope that he could can work through that and find a way through it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:59

He's such an exciting player, it's just great to see him on the pitch.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:03

Yeah, absolutely. And uh, but you know, Alex Lewinson, brilliant as well. I mean, yeah, we could be sat here forever appraising every single one of that 23 players who played, plus the coaching staff. And I mean, I think there was the example, and I I mentioned that the Quinn's coaching team when they looked absolutely clueless in their box. I think there was halfway through the second half they showed um Joe Shaw and Mark McCall talking, and they were having a proper, proper debate, and it was absolutely obvious that there was some, and that's the thing, isn't it? It's you know, never resting on the laurels and always striving to be better. And you know, most people will sit there and say, How can Saracens be better than what they were on Saturday? And I tell you, Mark McCall and Joe Shaw and the rest of the coaching team would have been sat down Sunday morning over a latte somewhere in Watford or wherever or Hemill or whatever, and would be discussing that and saying, This is where we can get better, this is what we could do. We should have scored 65 points, we should never have given away that seven points. What a great, you know, and and it this the other thing about it as well is it's not all old seasoned heads who are doing this. This is young players, and you look at the players there. Fio Dan's what 22, 23. Um, Juan Martin Gonzalez is 22, 23. Uh, you know, even Nick Tomkins is still only late 20s. These are young players are bought into this, you know, into this single-minded determination to be the very best, and it's just wonderful to see.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:37

We are in a transition, and it's being managed so well. And um, if you believe the rumors that are going on, we've got a couple of young number tens coming in, potentially. So that whole transition, yeah, it's it's it's it's almost seamless.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:53

When you consider that it is this season is the end of an era, uh, with Owen Far Farrell going, and yet on it goes.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:02

Absolutely. Well, look, I mean, we could go on forever, can we, Duncan? But I mean, I think we all saw it, we're all still sat there with cheesy grins and um toasting champagne rugby that we saw, and yeah, I think the key thing is to say is that often you'll see the comments on social media in particular, and you don't you don't like to give them too much uh um credence, as it were, but um the comments have been fulsome in their praise. Normally they you know it's like salary sends or whatever. This time round, it's been they were just good, excellent, brilliant. And that comes from Gloucester fans and bar fans, from Queen's fans, and not just our own fans. Uh people who understand rugby looked at that and went, Wow, that was amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:55

It was just everything about it, a great entertainment, including the whole day, and just fantastic execution in every single way.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:05

Absolutely that. Um, before we go, I need to quickly say um hi to Anthony and Mark Sindel. Good to see them on the uh on the shuttle bus on the way down there. And also Tony, who was on there, who um recognised me by my voice, which does go to prove that people do listen to us, Duncan.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:21

Yeah, well, they probably heard that uh that you got in a scrap with the Polish police and thought we're gonna avoid him.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:28

Yeah, I uh I don't blame you, honestly. And that was that was honestly the one of the hardest things I has ever happened. I actually got sent off in that game for my own safety, which was one of the one of two times that's happened to me. The other time with Daniel Lidley, but there we go, that's a different story for it a different time. Duncan, thank you very much for your time again, and uh, as I say, we'll be back after the Easter break. Um, hopefully, um continue to talk about Pauline Samson's performances with the uh with a game against Saints on Friday night, and looking forward to the Ford Nightless as well. Yes. Absolutely. Well, thank you everybody, and we'll see you next time on the Fed's Castle.