S4 E4: Eddie's P45?

Jez, Matt and Jon discuss the action after Saracens Men claim their first win, Saracens Women are beaten in their first cup outing, and the World Cup group stage remains intriguingly poised. And we can't help a dig at our favourite coach being given a trouncing by Nick Tompkins' Wales.

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Title Music (from Season 4): "Herald" by This Winter Machine

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SPEAKER_06 0:03

You're listening to the Fez Cast, produced on behalf of the Saracen Supporters Association and featuring the independent thoughts, rants, and rambles of Saracen's fans and special guests. If you'd like your opinion to be heard on the show, you can find the Fezcast on Facebook or Fezcast underscore SSA on Instagram and whatever Twitter is known as these days. But for now, enjoy this week's show.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Oh no! A uh a win for Saracen's men, if nothing else. But I know uh an evening, Matt, you're joining me. You've already chatted with John about the uh the games on the weekend at Stonex. Uh fortunately I never saw any of them because it was Sharon's birthday this weekend, so we were away up in Chester. I caught the internationals when I was allowed to in our hotel room in between going out for meals and going to see Al Murray and Bill Gedroitch in a a uh period comedy, which was hilarious. But uh yeah, it was quite good to come out of that and to see that we'd put 70 odd points on uh on uh Nottingham. And and Dan Vickers was right in what he said when we chatted to him last week, which was an excellent chat, wasn't it, Matt?

SPEAKER_06 1:35

It was very good, yeah. I mean, yeah, I've spoken to John about the uh about the game, but it you know it does show that there is a bit of a um a bit not only a golfing class between the premiership and the championship, but actually, you know, we we've seen the difference between facing Coventry and facing Nottingham, just the difference that a little bit more professionalism within the championship. What a what a difference that that makes. Um we didn't really get out of third-fourth gear too much. Um Nottingham, to be fair, through their back, scored some some quite tidy looking tries. Um, but yeah, it was um it was a trading ground game, and and me and John were predictably two of not very many more than two people that were uh that were there for it as well. But not too bad. But yeah, Dan was um Dan was quite right in what he was saying. It was um a way of uh getting some minutes in the legs and uh and getting back to winning ways.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

I suppose what it does show in it, what we didn't, we sort of like kind of touched on is the fact that you know, you look at Saracen's for argument's sake, the amount of players that we've got off in World Cup duty, and we'll talk about that in our last part after you and John have um chatted about the games. But when they come back, you know, I don't think there's any surprise that teams like Eden and Coventry in Jersey, who have been at the top of the championship for a number of years now, have you know that they can compete with loath to say weakened teams, but you know, not the the first teams of Saracens or Leicester or or whoever. And you know, it's when those big players come back that if Eden were to come up or Jersey or whoever, would they be able to cope with an entire season? One-off games are very much different to an entire season, as we know.

SPEAKER_06 3:20

Oh yeah, I think that there's no doubt in that if you if you stick those three sides in the uh in the premiership, um, they would probably lose the vast majority of games. They might take one scalp or two potentially um during the internationals. But yeah, at the end of the day, it's it's giving them some of the opportunity they need um to develop. So yeah, we will talk about it over and over again, really, that that the cup is is being played in the right way.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

But yeah, absolutely, and I and I think and and it's got a kind of like it's got a mirror to hold up to the World Cup where we look at tier two nations, which is a horrible thing to say. I mean, these are teams that are at that competition, um, you know, that they are performing. Even teams like Namibia and Chile have taken a thump in over the weekends, they still performed, and you know, they made France and England work hard for their for their points. But we'll talk about that in part three. Let's um get on with your chat with John, and uh I'm interested to hear what you two have got to say about what happened on the weekend, and then we'll come back and um yeah, uh we'll discuss all the big talking points on the World Cup, and uh I'm gonna have some fun, obviously.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

You're listening to the Fest Cast. Listening to the Fest Cast.

SPEAKER_06 4:30

Hi, Alex Osterberry here, director of rugby for Saracens Women. You're listening to the Saracens Festcast.

SPEAKER_04 4:36

This is the Festcast.

SPEAKER_06 4:40

Yeah, so Jez had a busy weekend, so he's uh he's missed all of the club rugby. But uh myself and John were at the uh at the Stone next, certainly, for the uh for the men's game, and um we unfortunately both had to miss the uh the later kickoff for the women's game. But um John, how are you doing, mate? We haven't seen you so far this season. You good?

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Yes, mate, thank you very much. Yeah, good to be back. I'm uh shame I couldn't make the first couple this season, but hopefully I'm back and uh you'll be getting bored of me soon, hopefully.

SPEAKER_06 5:06

Always I'll have to have a bit of variety in the voices anyway. But we um we probably should talk about the women's game a little bit. I mean, we'll admit that we both haven't uh haven't seen the action other than some brief highlights, but starting the season in the in the cup as the men are against um against Harlequins and um just about uh losing the match. Um it looked like uh a comeback was on at one point towards the end of the game, but but just beaten, really 29-36. But a few good things to to take from that game, anyway. It's the same same sort of thing as the men, really. Playing a cup team, there's a lot of young players involved and a lot of the new players involved. So just on paper, it still looks like a uh a reasonable run out, doesn't it, John?

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Yeah, of course it does. I mean it obviously you'd like to win, but if you can't win, don't get battered, and they didn't. And uh it was nice to see actually as the women were the the players were turning up in drips and drabs during the men's game, and they was walking past and getting a warm reception from where I was in the north stand. So yeah, hopefully they uh they enjoyed their hit out on the on the hallow turf and you know they'll be ready to go again. Bit of rust knocked off and yeah, up for the next one.

SPEAKER_06 6:11

Absolutely. But yeah, a few things to mention from it. The um we we were saying just before we started, really, there's obviously something about the uh the number two shirt for uh for Saracens Women. If you're wearing that shirt, you have to score a hatful of tries, and um Brianie Field on her on her debut scored a hat-trick, so um it looks like she's uh potentially giving May Campbell a run for her money with the uh with the try scoring so far this season. And May herself was um was playing for the Barbarians over in uh in South Africa for uh for a bit of a warm-up for the South Africa down there. But yeah, it's a bit interesting, isn't it? The hooker does seem to score a lot of tries for us, John.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Yeah, well, I guess if if you if you uh make the make use of kicks to touch and you you execute your line-outs well and you get your mall roll in, then it it's five points, no matter if it whether it's a beautiful team try or a pushover, they all count, so why not?

SPEAKER_06 7:03

Absolutely, and yeah, lots of lots of young players playing as well. Obviously, Zoe Harrison's um still out injured for a while, but um it was uh Amelia McDougal who's who's only just sort of signed into the senior team having come through the development, um development squad, who um apparently played very, very well from uh from people that I've I've spoken to, and um and she she made a couple of touchline conversions as well, which um which at that level is is gonna be pretty good. So it's um there's a bit of hope in the uh in the in the number 10 shirt that hopefully we don't miss uh miss Holly Hison too much. But yeah, anyway, turning to the uh the game that we both were able to uh to sit and watch. Um our first victory of the season for for Saracens, man, coming against Nottingham and a match that let's be honest, we we did expect that we were gonna win, especially when we saw the uh saw the team sheet, but it's still still a fair bit to take from the game, isn't there?

SPEAKER_02 7:55

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even if it's just minutes in the legs and a bit of cohesion and giving chances to players that might not play too much throughout the rest of the season. I it these games are worthwhile in my opinion, and you want to see the the next generation given a chance, and that's that you know that's exactly what we what we saw, and sprinkling of some uh new players, and yeah, it was it was just it was a nice afternoon. It was a bit windy at times, but as it always is, the windiest part of the world at the Stone Extadium. But yeah, mate, when you when you see the when I saw the team on Friday and I thought, well, you sort of was hoping we'd win by 40 or 50 points, and we pretty much did. And like I say, it's just it's all for me. This cup is all about fitness and preparation, getting ready for uh Exeter on the 14th of October, and when you got some really there were some really good performances, I thought. Um Toby Knight was exceptional after an early knock-on when he had a chance to go through, he recovered from that and was great. Must be the hair. Um Tom Willis look looked really good again. It was nice to see Ivan van Zal start. He he always impresses me. I love watching him play. Uh a couple of nice kicks and touches from uh Manuel Vunipola for the first try for Alex Lewington and then to start the move from which Ollie Stonham uh scored. Uh mate, it was it was a nice relaxing afternoon. We saw 73 points scored by our team and can't grumble.

SPEAKER_06 9:16

No, I'm I'm definitely with you there, and I think yeah, everyone that you mentioned I would have picked out as well was uh as good performances on the day. Um I enjoyed Samson at a Jimmy's cameo off the bench as well. I think uh he looked pretty uh pretty sharp. It's almost a shame really that he's got quite a uh queue ahead of him in the uh in the hooker shirt, but the try that he scored sort of barreling towards the fullback, you could tell that the uh that their fullback really had no interest in tackling him whatsoever, couldn't you?

SPEAKER_02 9:41

It was uh with Samson. I mean, last weekend he he was wearing shirt number 20, I believe.

SPEAKER_05 9:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

So he's another one of these hooker hot back row hybrid kind of players. We were talking about Theodan in the same circumstances not too long ago. And I tell you what, after that try, maybe he'll end up on the wing at some point as well.

SPEAKER_06 10:03

Bold prediction, definitely. I mean, I suppose there's a bit of a cue for him in the back row as well, isn't there? Really? But yeah, there's you know, there's good performances all around. We brought a few people off the bench as well, a few young players, and and like you said, I agree with you, it was a it was a good day out. It was nice to watch a relaxing game of rugby, really, over a hundred points scored on the day. Um, but yeah, we've sort of noticed a little bit of um you know complaining is the wrong word, but but but some people are saying the performance isn't good enough because we conceded five tries. Now I kind of get what people are saying, but at the end of the day, it's a cup game, it is with we're pretty much out of the running for the knockout stages of the cup. You're not gonna be playing at full tilt tackles flying in and looking to do yourself an injury when there are bigger games to come up, and I think that was um playing on people's minds a little bit with a couple of the tries that we conceded, and we've also got to give credit to Nottingham a couple of the the tries that they scored from from sort of cross-field kicks and things, they were no one would have defended it. Um they were very, very well taken tries, and I yeah, I don't really get the uh the the whinging at scoring 70 odd and conceding 29. I I really don't get it. What about you, mate?

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Yeah, um look I I I do understand it, of course. We'll we it we'll rather it was 73-0 and not 73-29, but but first thing to to say, as you've already said, is that Nottingham took a couple of their trials really well. That crossfield kick and the dot down where I thought the guy was gonna end up in the north stand was uh was an unbelievable finish. There was one where the the player burst through and run around Gareth Simpson, and listen, if it's a foot race, it doesn't matter what level they're at. Sometimes you you there are championship players that are quick, it just is what it is. So obviously there's things to work on, but then that's what these games are for. It's a glorified training game, in my opinion. But listen, they're not even produced a match day programme for these games. So that that that kind of oh well kind of never mind, it doesn't really matter, filtered through the whole club as far as I can see. But on a on a side note, I uh we saw we saw Jackson Ray on Saturday, Charlie and I, and uh, I just must say he looked very well, very relaxed, um less bruised than he normally looks, and uh I I hope his uh career transition is going well, fair play to him.

SPEAKER_06 12:28

Yeah, yeah, I must have I missed him. I knew he was knew he was there, but I'd uh didn't manage to uh didn't manage anything. So yeah, I totally get what you're saying. You know, there is the other side of it where at the end of the day we have paid to be there. We we sort of there is a little bit of an expectation that we're gonna see some decent rugby, but at the end of the day it is it is what it is. Um and yeah, I thought it was a pretty good pretty good day out there. They put enough on facilities-wise. Um, no, it wasn't the best attended match, and it seemed to filter through into the into the women's game as well. But it is the Prem Cup. I like what they've done with the Prem Cup. I'm glad the championship teams are involved in it. And we've got Harprey coming up at the uh at the Stone X as well, haven't we? And and that's probably gonna be even less well attended, which is probably a bit of a bit of a shame for them, but it adds a little bit of variety to the season, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 13:22

It does, and if you you know, if anyone was uh taking these championship clubs for granted, I mean match day one we lose to Coventry, so there's a little bit more jeopardy in it than we thought there might have been. You see them fixtures and you think, well, we should win all of them, but that's not how it works, and yeah, mate, it's I think it's it's good for the for the championship clubs, probably more so than the premiership clubs, because you know, after that Coventry game, it was our first premiership team to lose to a championship club and all that other nonsense, but it is what it is, is a developmental competition. And you know, I remember 19, was he 19-year-old Noah ToJ captaining us to this cup not so long ago? So the pathway's there and it serves a purpose. Like I say, I enjoyed Saturday, that was a good day out, and it's less stressful. I know that there's going to be fingernails dropped. Well, I know that's disgusting, but I get nervous when it's uh when it's a proper game, so that's nice to be a bit more chilled on a Saturday afternoon.

SPEAKER_06 14:15

No, I totally get that. Like you say, we we've enjoyed some enjoyed some thrillers at the Stonex, but I've I've developed plenty of grey hairs over uh over the last year and and you've lost most of yours. So um yeah, maybe nice nice to talk about, don't we? Yeah, what can you do? Anyway, that's probably it for uh for the game. There's not a huge amount to uh to to bring you from from the Nottingham game. It was a good good run out, it was a good win. There were some very well taken tries. Defence was regularly optional, it's kind of what you want in a little cup game, isn't it? But cheers, John. Really good to uh to speak to you for a bit. Well uh we'll sit back with Jez now and probably listen to him have a big old rant about Eddie Jones, which is um yeah, strapping everyone.

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SPEAKER_01 16:00

Anyway, before we start up, Matt, did you hear about the um the Aussie lad who pulled into the hotel car park in um in France last night, his pickup truck or his high car, whatever, and it was covered in mud and grass and shrubbery, but loads and loads of blood. And the receptionist comes out and says, Monsieur, monsieur, what's happened here? Uh says, Ah, geez, Mike, he says, I hit that Eddie Jones on the way back here. The guy says, Well, my my poor quad. The the the blood, yeah, he said it explains it, but is he scrubbery? He says, Ah, yeah, the bastard tried escaping across the park.

SPEAKER_06 16:36

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Back to the show, and uh, welcome back to part three of the show. And yeah, I had a little bit of fun there at Eddie Jones's uh expense. And let's let's go there. It was the last game of the the weekend, and yeah, we're gonna talk about the rugby world cup, obviously, because there's an awful lot of Saracens players involved and lots of people involved, also coaching um wise as well. Um, from from with a Saracens background. I mean, you only have to look at the club, it's uh it's either Saracens or or Wigan Warriors, isn't it? They seem to be a finger in almost every pie out there at some point in their career. But yeah, Eddie Jones, the the great overrated one, as I've I've gone to to call him, has really been exposed. And I think Barry pointed out, didn't he, on the WhatsApp group, where he turned around and said, at what point does um Eddie Jones lose his job seekers allowance by constantly losing games uh or losing jobs? And yeah, I mean, I put the tweet out there and said, you know, it was amazing to think that it took Eddie Jones five years to turn England into a boring, prescriptive, risk adverse, just bash it up the middle, kick possession away team. Well, he's done it to Australia in six months, and quite frankly, Australia was shocking against Wales, but Wales were very, very good and made them look shocking. But I mean, Eddie Jones, I'm sorry, I've always said it, and people who listen to the first cast over the last three or four years, we all know that my my disrespect to or my my my rating of Eddie Jones is always been lower, and I didn't think he'd get any lower, but to be perfectly honest with you, it couldn't happen to a nicer bloke, could it, Matt?

SPEAKER_06 18:21

Yeah, I mean it would have been the worst thing for us if he uh if he went off over to Australia and and worked some kind of miracle, but yeah, it's not happened. Um I mean to be fair, to be fair, it's not really fair, but Australian rugby is in is in pretty dire straits to be honest. It it's not uh the popular sport that it that it should be in Australia. There's not the players coming through, they're they're much more focused on on other sports there at the moment. Um but yeah, I I really don't understand Eddie's Eddie's tactics, to be honest. Um he's basically treating it like he's building for 2027, which surely you don't take a team to a World Cup entirely with a view on the next World Cup. Um surely you look at it, you you take it as a free shot, you go, do you know what? We're not expected to win. Um but I'm not just gonna drop legends of the game from from my squad and expect young players just to get end up straight in the limelight and and do well.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

The likes of Michael Hooper, Michael Hooper and Quaid Cooper are probably sitting at home laughing their asses off because let's just compare um four coaches who've come into those jobs uh at international level at a similar time. So Steve Borthwick for England, and we've had there's been lots of criticism of Steve Borthwick, but actually I think his stock is beginning to rise again as a coach with England. You look at Simon Raoulouy at Fiji, you look at Warren Gatland at Wales, and they've done very simple things, they've just taken everything back to basics, brought in a lot of experience. Fiji brought in experience that perhaps wasn't there before, but Warren Gatland has has looked at players like Wayne Wright, like Toby Fear and Tolupe Falatao, Gareth Davis, who was exceptional again last night, George North. He's trusted a lot of experienced players, Dan Bigger, you know, and said, Okay, we're gonna build around you and brought some youngsters in with something to prove, but not just completely throwing baby out with a bath water. England had done the same. You know, you and me would sit here and say, would we have taken Ben Young's? Probably not. I can now see the reasoning and the rationale behind taking an experienced player like that. More than anything else, that's more building for the next World Cup because you're not exposing young players, like the young lad playing fly off in the first two games for Australia, who then gets hiked off and jetsons. I mean, his confidence has got to be shot to pieces, and that's not building it up. You know, you're looking to look at a Rafi Quirk and a you know, of unfortunately he would have gone if he hadn't been injured, but you know, it's probably a good injury for him to get because you know he's now gonna have that four-year cycle to build into the next World Cup. And England at the end of the day could easily get to a final, certainly a semi-final is there for the taking. I mean, okay, you're gonna have to get past Fiji probably, but you know, it's there for taking, which three weeks ago we were saying England wouldn't get out of the group stages. So, you know, Eddie Jones has come in with his great reputation of being the great coach and everything, and he is he he really hasn't done done done it at all, and certainly not in comparison with the other three guys I mentioned.

SPEAKER_06 21:39

Absolutely not. No, I mean, I'm gonna I'm still gonna be Steve Borthwick's critic, to be honest. I mean the Japan game was one of the worst games of rugby I've watched for England for a long time. I I hated sitting watching that, but you're right, it's we we we feel that we're struggling, and he's just taken the team back to basics, and and you and you build up from. That level. You know, if we're sitting here in two years' time and it just doesn't seem to be any different, then then maybe we're having a slightly different conversation. But yeah, like you say, there's experienced players in the England squad, there's inexperienced players in the England squad, exactly the same for Wales, and they're they're leaning on each other. Um, you know, that that Welsh team should not be in the position that it's in, really. But it's just the ability of some of those players to dig deep and for Warren Gatland to dig deep. Look, on another day, they would have lost to Fiji, and we're talking we're talking about something very different. But there is just there's a lot to be said for for taking just a handful of experienced heads rather than yeah, just just jettisoning everything and and starting again. You know, the way Eddie's gone about it, he almost it's almost like he's picking a squad where he can turn around and go, Well, look at the squad I had, it was never gonna work. That's that's a bit unfair on the squad squad you've picked, mate. That's yeah, don't get it.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Absolutely. Um, before we move on from Wales, Australia, though, we do have to mention the one Saracens player in that team who I fought last night. I mean, there were there were a lot of standout performances from the the Welsh Anscom was brilliant, Gareth Davis was brilliant, Talipe Fallatel, Jack Morgan all played superbly. Nick Tomkins, though, got a try, but there was one piece of play that absolutely typified um Nick's importance to a team was where there would be I I can't remember which player it was, but one of the forwards that got into contact and got isolated, and Nick saw it, came charging in and basically held off three Australian forwards pretty much on his own at the rock situation that allowed Wales to recycle the ball. And suddenly two three phases later, Anscom's tripping over the top, and Nick's gone in underneath the posts. And you know, this is the big thing that I think I said it. The fact that Eddie Jones, when England coach, had the opportunity to pick Nick Tompkins for England and said, and went on record and said he is too small. And Wayne Pivach as well, who uh a previous Welsh coach said Nick Tompkins is too small. Well, Nick Tompkins yesterday proved that he might only be five foot nine, five foot ten, and he might only be 13 and a half stone, but he plays two to three shirts sizes bigger than what he actually is. He's a strong lad.

SPEAKER_06 24:33

I've seen it time and time again, playing for Saracens. That the the players that he flattens, that he has no right to do that. He's he's always been like that. We've we've seen it. Mark McCall's seeing it, and now Warren Gatlin's seeing it. Yeah, he's he's a scrappy player. Um, he knows what his limitations are, probably, but yeah, he he he really does put himself about. And it is a shame that he's not he's not playing for England. He's he's like many people, he's been Eddie Jones. Um, and yeah, he was fantastic against Australia, and he'll probably uh be fantastic for the rest of the World Cup for Wales, but they've got a few people to choose from at centre anyway.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Well, they have indeed. Um, but yeah, well done to Nick Tompkins. Now, let's look at the rest of the World Cup. There's a couple of controversial moments that we need to pick up on, and we'll go all the way back to um France versus Namibia. A cricket score again, albeit a you've got to take into context that French team, no Marshall who's injured, no Aldri, who's a bit dodgy at the moment, no Entermac who's injured. The rest of that team put 50 odd points on England in the six nations. For Namibia to be within 40 points of that shlack in that that England took is actually testament to how far they've come and how competitive they are. That French team was full strength for what they could put out, and for 54 minutes with Mathieu Jalabert pulling the strings at fly half, they were imperious. And I don't think they're at that on that performance, there's a team in the World Cup, and I'll include Ireland and the box in that, who could have lived with that level of brilliance that they gave. And I mean, Jonathan Dante coming back, great game they came back into against Namibia, showed his importance to France, but they were superb, right up until the point that Antoine took one in the in the mush, which is an interesting point. But I mean, just talk about the French versus all, Matt. What were your impressions?

SPEAKER_06 26:42

Yeah, I mean they were fantastic, and you know, yes, put it in context, that Namibia team, they were always going to beat them. Um you mentioned it actually, I should say you mentioned it a little bit in the first half about the opportunities that teams get from the championship in domestic level and then tier two or tier one and a half, tier two, tier two and a half, whatever you want to call it in international rugby. Namibia spent four years playing the other African nations, the vast majority of which they put a hundred points on. I think they just have to basically play Zimbabwe and Madagascar, I think it is, that give them a reasonable game. They qualify for every single World Cup, and every four years they get beat by New Zealand, rinse and repeat. What are they supposed to do, really? Um and yeah, they came up against a France team who are I think at the moment they are the best team in the world. I mean, you know, we can talk about Ireland in a bit, but I think they are the best team in the world. They they played them off the park, not helped by a red card as well. Um the thing that shocks me about that game is that DuPont was still on the pitch at the time. Um, quite why a couple of those players didn't come off at half time. I think a really big mistake. Yes, play them, um, minutes in the legs, show some respect to Namibia as well. Um, and a lot of players do benefit from being out there and and not having too much of a break, but I think you do wrap your best players in cotton wool up at that point, and it it yeah, it's proven pretty costly unless he turns up in a Hannibal Lecter mask for the next game.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Well, absolutely, but I mean this goes back to the point you were making about Namibia playing the standard of rugby that they play in between World Cups, and the fact of the matter is these guys don't get the exposure to the high-intensity rugby, and on 60 minutes they were knackered, and that tackle there was no intent in it, it was accidental, but it was born out of the fact that the lad had spent the previous 60 minutes tackle, get up, tackle, get up, tackle. He was knackered, and when you're knackered, you make mistakes. The best players in the world will make mistakes. If you're a Namibian farmer, you know, or a student or whatever, you are more likely to make that mistake. And you're right, absolutely right. There's a there's a huge error on behalf of the French management and putting their player in that position. If they bought on one of the reserves scrum ass and that happened to them, well, it would have been a shame for that player, but you're not gonna miss him. The chances are now potentially DePont is going to be playing with an injury that people may well target because why wouldn't you? He's the best player in the world and you want to put him off his game, or he's gonna do himself some serious damage, further damage. And I know I've played with a fractured cheekbone before. I mean, Brad Barrett did it, he had what a week out where he had a plate put in and everything like that, and came back and played. But then, you know, Brad bless his cotton socks, you know, he's never gonna go into the movies after his career ended, was he? So not unless he was playing a village or something, but yeah, you know, I mean that's it, it it was it was a ridiculous decision all the way around. But it also, whilst world rugby will not support these lower nations and giving them more intense rugby to play in between World Cups, then you're gonna get these situations occur.

SPEAKER_06 30:07

Absolutely, yeah. Um, it's where I I saw an argument the other day, and I I at first I went that's absolutely ridiculous, and then thought about it and thought there was a lot of reasoning behind it for once a team gets 60-70 points ahead, you end the game. And you know, it's it's kids' games that do that, and and it does rile people up if it's suggested, but actually, how many times do you see a match be that one-sided, and there's either a red card or a serious injury, and not through any kind of deliberate malice or anything. I mean, yes, there will be some frustration involved as well, but quite often, like you say, it is down to a team who've just been absolutely pasted for an hour, they're knackered, so the technique goes, um, and they're a little bit lazy, or they're they're a bit slow to react, and and and they cause an injury. Um, so I don't know that you want to see that in a World Cup, but it's definitely food for thought.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Absolutely, something's got to be done, and I think that there's you know, we could spend an entire show on this, or we could go on one of the big podcasts and give our ideas out, and I'll put my ideas out there. But uh, let's get back to the games. Italy, um, big big result for them. This is the interesting one for the next rounds: Italy versus New Zealand, because New Zealand don't have that aura of invisibility any longer. Italy have really improved, got some really good players. Kieran Crowley knows New Zealand inside out. I'm not saying there is going to be a surprise there, but if there is a surprise there, it wouldn't shock me as much as it would have done four or eight years ago, Matt.

SPEAKER_06 31:46

No, I'm I'm I'm with you as well. But I you know, we do, even under Kieran Crowley, we do see Italy, you know, the game can be over in 10 or 15 minutes sometimes. Um, but equally they've they have shown over the last few years that they will go toe-to-toe with teams, and not just the sort of the wins of old that they had, which which was just physical grunt up front, score a lot of penalties, and just about get over the line, you know, they've got a lot of talent in their backs as well, um, and they they they could cause a shock. Um, I think they're actually a little bit unlucky to be in the group that they're in. Um but like you say, yeah, um it's not something that would um that would surprise me a lot. Um, but I mean given the fact that New Zealand have already lost to France, um they're not a team that loses twice in a World Cup, or certainly not in a World Cup group stage. And having said that, speak to you next week.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Well, absolutely. I mean, we'll wait and see. I'm looking forward to that game um quite a lot. Let's move forward though on to Saturday and two big games on Saturday. Uh, we'll do we'll do it in order. We'll do England first, I think, and then we'll obviously spend a lot of uh time and attention on that one. And there's some key Saracens involvement there. Um, number one, we talk about intensity, we talk about smaller nations coming up against teams. Chile for 20 minutes made England work very, very hard. Now there's two things happen there. One, Chile have proved themselves to be a very good side. Their players have been, they're not fully professional, but they've been allowed time to be professional, as it were, in the build-up to this World Cup, which is obviously paid dividends. You've also got the aspect that there were a few players, Owen Farrell being the pride one, who hasn't played for four games due to the suspension, coming back into it, finding his feet. You got Marcus Smith starting for the first time at fullback. He took a little while to get into the flow of what he was meant to be doing. First 20 minutes, I thought, oh, here we go. He's trying to win this game on his own. But then he worked out what he needed to do, and when it clicked, England looked very, very good. The last hour that was as good as seeing England play for three, three, four seasons almost.

SPEAKER_06 34:08

Yeah, I mean, we're always going to add the caveat that it was just chilly. Um, it's a bit it is unfair, but it is right. Um and you know, we we we don't learn a huge amount from these games, the same as the Saracens Nottingham game. We don't learn a lot from them unless you lose them. Um But yeah, like you say, that it showed that there is actually some talent in the England team to to do something reasonably exciting. Um and yeah, I like the experiment. I like Smith at 15. We we talked about it last week and the week before. Um poo-pooed it a little bit, I think. But you know, for for him to come on at 15 in the last 20 minutes of a game and and do what he did in in the second half of the uh of the chili game, I think that'd be fantastic, really. It's a great option to have. We did have a joke a few of us um and and say we should just go the whole hog, we should have we should have Ford Farrell Smith. I mean we weren't far away from this, but Ford Farrell Smith, you stick Daly out there, you stick Mailins out there as well. You and you've got a playmaker in every single position, and you just play roulette to uh to see who's playing where. Why not? Just just go with that. Sod you two illaggies and that lot, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

It's an interesting point made, Aaron. I mean, I actually made the point on on Twitter um about this as well, and I've said it to a number of people. The first things first is is quite interesting because we've seen Danny Cipriani opening his cob again, blaming everybody but himself for the fact that he was a feckless, lazy, uh believed his own um his own publicity, and never made, you know, he was a great talent, but never made the most of it. And you know, I've often suggested that Marcus Smith has the potential to be Cipriani 2.0. What I think Marcus Smith has done has proven that he isn't that, that he will knuckle down and he just wants to play rugby for England, which you can only applaud. And that way, what he will do is he will be a team man. Now, this might sound weird, but you know, the the Springboks have taken an awful lot of grief, particularly for Matt Williams, who really should shut up because he's a failed coach and he's an even worse pundit. But you know, this whole 7-1 split on the bench is immoral enough. No, it's not, it's just using your strengths to the best of your ability. The Springboks put 7-1 against Ireland, it didn't really come off, the bomb score didn't come off. England, though, are in an even better position than the Springboks to go 7-1 if they wanted to, and if we play the Spring Box at any point, I would be seriously tempted to do this, and again, yes, it's a risk, but Marcus Smith potentially covers you nine, 10, 13, 11, 14, and 15. Okay. I don't say 12 because I don't think his defense is good enough for 12. But if you've got Owen Farrell on the pitch and your inside center goes down, you put Smith in at 10, you move Faz out the 12. Or you've got Ben Earl on the pitch somewhere or on the bench, he goes in and slots in at 12 if you need him to. So you could do that. I'm not saying they will, but I mean the temptation must be there, and I think that's what it means. He's got the pace to be on the wing, both wings, he can do that. He's got the the ability at 13 to play like Elliott Daly does at 13. That's a potential going forward, I think. Potential. If you really wanted to throw the roulette wheel out there and just go full in and bet the house on it.

SPEAKER_06 37:38

Well, I mean, you know, we we we'll talk about South Africa in a minute, but yeah, like like you say, you when you play them, you you do need to go toe-to-toe with them. I think there's there's no no way of uh sort of beating them at a different game. So yeah, why not? So I think if we do end up getting that far into the tournament, none of us expected to, and you think, yeah, why not why not try something out? Definitely. But yeah, I mean from the England Chile game, there's a lot, there's a lot to talk about. I mean, there's there's still plenty of Owen Farrell bashing. You can't get away from uh away from that. I don't think you did anything wrong necessarily, but everyone everyone seems to be shocked that George Ford came on with 20-25 minutes to go and all of a sudden the the tempo went up, but that's because it's the last 20-25 minutes against Chile. I think I could come on and uh bring the tempo up against them a little bit. The same as I probably could have scored a hat trick if I was standing in Henry Arundel's position, but I'm picking myself up a bit too much there.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Well, I mean, Owen Farrell, number one, defence was superb, the organisation of defence was superb, England didn't fall off tackles. Yeah, okay, it's Chile. So what? You beat what's in front of you, that's what was in front of you. You play against that. Once he got to the to the level of the game and the rustiness had come out of him, and it didn't take him a great deal of time. The distribution from Farrell, the change in how he did it, whether he was going to be kicking, or whether he's gonna be passing, or whether he was going to be making the run, or someone was popping off of him, or whatever. It was see it was superb. And Farrell is a captain, simple as, and you know, that's what England needed, and what's what England got? He plays against Samoa at 10. This is gonna be terribly hard on George Ford, who's had one really, really good game, but his really, really good game was limited to to one star to play. And you know, if Argentina had actually bothered to turn up on that day, it could well have been very, very different. Owen Farrell is the best 10 in England, uh, best 10 in the Northern Hemisphere, potentially. He's up there with the Jalabers and the uh and the Entermax and the Johnny Sextons, and yeah, he's taken an awful lot of grief that is completely and utterly undeserved.

SPEAKER_06 39:50

He has. I mean, I'm tempted to go Ford Farrell 1012, but we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

Absolutely. Um, quick mention uh for players. I mean, Ben Hill came on, did brilliantly. I thought he had a pretty pretty decent game. He's not he's not got the pace he had four years ago. We know that, but he does other things now in a number eight shirt, and I think he's done pretty well. Theodan really did impress me for a young lad who's come from nowhere 12 months ago. There's not a single person outside of Northwest, whatever our postcode is, who would even know who Theodan was. He has a chat to me on the first cast before the final last year, and suddenly you know he's he's he's up there top echelons in many people's team of the week from you know from the from the from the press and everything. So, you know, it's all thanks to me. I'm taking that one.

SPEAKER_06 40:47

Yeah, nothing to say to that.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Well, look, we've done England, we've done our Assassin's Players there. Let's have a quick look at it uh Ireland, South Africa, and we have touched on it a little bit. The South African bomb squad. I'm gonna say one thing, uh one thing now. I think Razi Erasmus, for all of his um irrascibleness, and the fact that as a person, I kind of put him somewhere around about on Eddie Jones, just a bit below Eddie Jones level. I think he is an innovator. Uh, him and Jackson Obell. Uh they have innovated, they have done things. One thing I don't like is this light system. They have taken all of the responsibility, all of the free thinking, all of the play what's in front of you away from their team. And the late on when they're you know we're telling Pfaff de Klerk to take pots from Miles out, you know, the Irish uh line out wasn't functioning as well as it should have done. They should have kicked to the corner, and that's them just almost playing rugby by numbers. And I think someone needs to sit down with them in their organization and say, look, we need to give some responsibility back to their those players on the field. Whether those players on the field are now so attuned to taking instruction from the from the light system, the ambers, the greens, the reds, I don't know and whether they can do, but against a team that plays at the same level as them, like Ireland, who do think on their feet, and who also do get the the crack of the whip, particularly at rug time, because they never get penised. And uh Josh van der Fleer is a walk-in penalty who just seems to have a cloak of invisibility about him. Um, you know, they will come undone against Ireland, against France, I think, who play a bit more intuitively, shall we say?

SPEAKER_06 42:36

Yeah, I think that system must um make some of the South, not not not doubt their abilities, but make some of the South African players sort of question their instinct a little bit. Um, and I think yeah, we definitely saw that in that game. But yeah, you've got to credit island. Um, they knew exactly what they were going to come up against. It was a ferocious game. Low uh it shows that a low-scoring game can actually be quite entertaining as well. Um, and yeah, fair play. It was a good game, rugby, can't argue.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

It was an actually the interesting point. I think it was Sonia McLaughlin who made it first, I think, on Twitter, but a number of people have um have picked up on it as well. It's to talk about the intensity and the amount of hits, and there was not one yellow card, not one red card, not even one contentious TMO. Do you want to have a look at that ref situation? Every tackle from both sides was low, it was hard, but it was fair. And you know, when you see like the Scotland game with the Tonga guy and everything, and I do question why that wasn't a red, although I can see Jamie Ritchie is a player who goes in with absolutely no self regard for his own safety, and he leads with his head. And I I don't know whether he is looking for that head contact or not, but it happens to him quite a lot, and it will curtail his career and potentially you know have. An impact on the rest of his life if he doesn't stop going in and head buttons, shoulders, and everything. But it was a red card and they missed that one. They got that one completely wrong. Tom Curry must be sat there thinking, Jesus, mate, am I the only one who's getting done properly on this?

SPEAKER_06 44:18

No, I'm I'm with you. Um I did. I think the the sort of justification they had for it in isolation, I'd go, do you know what? Okay, fair enough. But it's the consistency of of everything that's going on. Like you say, Jamie Richie, you you could having analysed it in that in the back of a van or wherever it is that they've got the TMO and sort of minutely gone into it, yeah, he dips a little bit and he leads with his head. So there's there's mitigation for the for the Tonga player, and we wouldn't get that with a normal TMO process, we get that because they take the pressure off and they do it over the course of eight minutes, and so I do like that review system. And I think what it might actually do is lead to more things that we think are red cards actually staying as a yellow because of some pretty detailed mitigation. But yeah, like you say, I if I was Tom Curry, I'd be going, Well, hold on a second, that didn't really apply to me. But it it's a new system and it might it may well work itself out.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Well, indeed, and I think you know that again that's another part of rugby that's been taking a lot of criticism. The fact that referees don't seem to be given um, you know, that they've got on out, that they don't have to make the decision, as it were, but they do, and it's just using what they've got in front of them. And actually, you know, the top referees, and I think Carl Dixon had a good good game with referees, um, you know, a couple of a couple of conscientious ones. Matt Carley came back with a good referee and performance of four. Yako Piper was very good. Wayne Barnes, as ever, exemplary in his referee and performance. The big decisions on the field that they can make, they do make. But if they've got the opportunity to go to a bunker and and just have it ratified, it doesn't take anything out of the game. Why not do it? Absolutely. Yeah, so the so the last game we've got to review is really is Scotland versus Tonga, which was a bit of a a cure as egg, really. I mean, Scotland, on the face of it, looked very comfortable. And in attack, they had some sparkly moments, uh, sparked by Finn Russell, who is a Mercurial talent. Uh, do Ann Van der Verva when he gets going. I mean, you you'd need a bazooka to stop him. I mean, very reminiscent of uh Jonah Luma in his uh in his in his pomp, just with a bit more of a sidestep, I suppose. But yeah, Darcy Graham again. I will say um George Horn, someone's gonna snout him at some point, isn't it? He's probably gonna be a referee as well, I think. He's gonna snout him as well. I think Wade Barnes came very close to it at one point. I mean, Jesus, he the typical small Scotsman, he just needs a ginger hair do, and he's got it all. Yeah, small Scottish ginger hair doesn't know when he's beaten, doesn't know when to shut up. I mean, that that was the thing, but yeah, I think Scotland did enough. I think they would have wanted a bit more from the game and certainly would have appreciated that red card being the red card as we think it would have been, because then that would make things very interesting going forward. South Africa are gonna play Tonga next weekend, and that's it. Then everything's out of their hands now. Scotland are playing Romania, aren't they? On on the weekends. Imagine Scotland putting out a cricket score against Romania, it could easily happen, and you're suddenly looking at both them and South Africa. South Africa, the best they can do, I think, is get 15 points, isn't it? Scotland are on five points now. I mean, they're gonna kick themselves for that performance against South Africa because if they got even a losing bonus point out of it, they would be in a very good position. If they get a bonus point win against Ireland, and let's be honest about it, all Ireland needs to do is get a bonus point to guarantee themselves. So a losing bonus point, or not a losing bonus point, a bonus point for scoring four tries, but Scotland putting 80 points on it. Could make things very, very interesting. And that's not I'm not saying there's gonna be a conspiracy amongst the uh the Gaelic Celtic nations here, but you know, I mean, stranger things have happened in the world of uh international sporting tournaments.

SPEAKER_06 48:27

Well, yeah, I mean uh if if you're Ireland, are you looking at South Africa as a potential opponent in the final and going, no, we don't want that, and and helping out, but yeah, I I hope I hope it doesn't happen. Um it's been weird. Um a couple of inmates are from Scotland, um, and they're sort of quite quite down really because they they kind of felt that the way the group was drawn, they play they played one game and then had a rest. And um so and a couple of teams have played played three games and they're looking at it and saying, Well, we've played one match and we're already out of the tournament.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

Yeah, that's possibly the most Scottish thing ever.

SPEAKER_06 49:04

Yeah, um, and it's a bit sad really because it's it's probably the best Scotland side we've seen for a long time, and they've been shafted with the uh with the group that they're in.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

Um but yeah, no, they're gonna I'm gonna pick you up on that one because uh and I replied to Andy Nickel, and he hasn't said anything actually on Twitter where he's talks about you know how the fact you got the the second, the first, third, and fifth ranked teams at this moment in the same group. Well, everybody knows how the Rugby World Cup is drawn. It might be complete and at a Codswallet the way it's drawn, but they all knew and they all knew that you had to be in a good position three years ago. So just play better three years ago, and you'd have been in the top four or five, and you wouldn't have been drawn with Ireland and you know, England's for everything, you know, they had they got to a World Cup final in 2019. The best thing Eddie did for us was do that, and then you know, we suddenly find ourselves in a group that we could get out of reasonably safely, as it were, and that's about the only thing he did do for England rugby. But but the other teams, you have the opportunity, you know when it's going to be drawn, you know how it's gonna be drawn. You you know, it's not just a case of you have to peak for this point, you have to qualify correctly, and it's no different in football, it's like you know, if you're England qualifying for the next football world cup, there's no point being crap at the moment if you can't get out of your group. Italy have found that in recent years in the football. You you have to be at playing at a consistently high level the whole cycle. Gone are the days of of you know going to a World Cup and then having a year off and rebuilding, you've got to keep that intensity going at the very highest level, the whole cycle.

SPEAKER_06 50:55

There's a reason they're changing the way they're or the timing of doing the draw for the next time round. It is a bit silly that they're they're drawing it out three years in advance, but hey-ho, back to the game. Scotland did what they needed to do. Um they uh they they had to do what what most other teams have done against a lesser but still good opponent, and and and that's ride out that first 20-30 minutes where they go hammer and tongue at you. Um and then sort of move through the gears a little bit. And you and and you did kind of see it with for for Tonga's uh captain scoring uh scoring their try. Finn Russell just just waved him through. Was not interested in uh in tackling him. He's been stepped by a 20-something stone prop. Um but you could tell us okay, fair enough. You score that try, we're gonna score five more later on. I'm not getting injured, I've got bigger things to do. Maybe. But yeah, I Scotland have done what they needed to do, and it it does just they've got a it. I don't think it really matters how many points they put on Romania. They they have to beat Romania with five, they have to beat Ireland to get five. That's that's all there is to it.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

Yeah, absolutely. Well, look, I've enjoyed the World Cup so far. We're at the halfway point now. 24 out of the 48 matches played. It's been excellent. We just need to do a quick uh preview of what's coming up this weekend, and we've got hardly wins in the cup, bit of a derby. So uh, yeah. Have you seen did you see enough on the weekend, Matt, to say that our team short of its superstars will be good against Quinn's short of their superstars?

SPEAKER_06 52:30

Uh yeah, there was it there was enough to go on. Um it's we always have a bit of a slow build-up into the season, don't we? But you know, at the end of the day, we're uh we're not doing too well in the cup, but there's there's a bigger picture to it. So I think regardless of the result, um hopefully it's a game that that gives us something to it to go on for a few weeks' time for when uh when we face Exeter, really.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

Absolutely, yeah. I mean that's the that's obviously the main objective going forward in the short term, and yeah, it looks like we're taking steps in the right direction. Matt, thank you for your time this evening, and uh thank you also to John for his input uh talking about the games just gone off at Stonex. Brilliant stuff from him. Uh we're gonna be back um first week of October now. It's um uh October, all it means York Marathon's getting closer and closer for me. Um and I've got hopefully by next week I'll have um news of a very special um uh auction item that I'm gonna be auctioning off the most near on, thanks to one of the uh rugby fraternity. So uh I'll wait for that to come through, but hopefully we'll have to talk about that next week and then uh tell you all how you can get involved in that. But other than that, thanks Matt. Thanks, John, thanks everybody for listening in uh to the postcast. We're back next Wednesday on the 4th of October. So hopefully we're over hardly wins to talk about, and nothing to talk about with England in the rookie because a weekend off.