S3 E43: A Very Grand Finale (with Lucy Wray!)

What a finish to the Fezcast season! We're very grateful to the club and to Lucy Wray, who joins us for a second time to discuss her feelings after the final, as well as off-pitch matters; from the winner's salary cap audit to the financial stability of the club and the league, to the integration of Women's sport in the Saracens Family. And is there any player news too?

And of course, Matt and Jo take you through the results of our Women's Team of the Year polls.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to the Fezcast this season. We'll be back soon!

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Title Music (from Season 4): "Herald" by This Winter Machine

Transcript

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SPEAKER_04 0:01

The following podcast is brought to you on behalf of the Tariton Supporters Association and is not an official product of Taritans Limited. Content provided voluntarily by our guests and contributors are of their own opinion, which may change over time and should not be taken as fact, particularly as the podcast hosts are regularly talking drivel anyway. If you've got some drivel of your own you'd like to share, you can find us on Twitter and Instagram at Fezcast underscore SSA. You can search Facebook for the Fezcast, or you can email Fezcast.com.

SPEAKER_06 0:33

Listening to the Fezcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Well, welcome to not only Fezcast 7700 and whatever, I don't know how many it is. I I can't even get my words around it, but um also the last one of the season, Matt. It's our last Fezcast of season three.

SPEAKER_04 0:50

It is. I'm feeling very summary.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Well indeed shirt, mate. I mean, um, thankfully, you guys, we don't go onto YouTube or anything like that. But I mean, uh, yeah, so Matt's looking resplendent in his um Saracen Savion shirt, and I've decided just to go with the Saracens playing uh replica jersey because we do have a big guest returning to the fest cast today. Lucy Ray's gonna come on and have a chat with us, and we'll revisit what we spoke to her about at the start of the season and review the season and discuss all the different things about the club. Matt, you've um and Joe have um got together and put together the women's team of the year, yeah?

SPEAKER_04 1:29

We have, and we've done it very, very thoroughly actually. It's probably quite a long podcast, but um yeah, we definitely needed to do the women's team justice, although we um we sort of fell short in the semifinal, really. It's been um a long and difficult season for a lot of people, and there's there's you know there's upwards of 30, 40 players that have contributed massively to the season. So um putting a 15-player team of the season together was very, very tricky. So we've we've given it our best alongside everyone on Twitter and Instagram and yourself, Jez. Um, and yeah, we'll see how it goes. But yeah, we're signing off of the season with that, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Let's have um an advert, and then you'll be on with Joe and um uh and discuss the women's team, and then we'll be talking to Lucy right after that.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

You're listening to the podcast, which is proudly sponsored by the Starstone Supporters Association, and I'm Alison Davis, one of the SSA committees. For £10 annual subscription, the SSA provides our members with monthly newsletters, virtual and in-person player events, away match ticket allocations, and we organise prematch gatherings and we matches. We sponsor members and the news players, and we support the Sally's Foundation backscap on behalf of our members. On top of all that, every year we have a speedful SSA badge, which is exclusive to members. Where else can you get that much value for a tenor? Join now at memberlojo.co.uk forward slash SSA. Or come and see us on match day in the LA District's Tenex.

Saracens Women Team of the Year

SPEAKER_04 3:19

Welcome to the very last episode of the Fez Cast for the season. We've uh we've just about made it. There's still a little bit of rugby to be played, but sadly we're uh we're not involved in it. But what it does mean is that Joe's here with me. We're gonna talk through the women's team of the season, as we did with the men's. Um we've we've picked ours, you've picked yours on social media. We don't agree with each other as usual, so there's plenty to talk about. But first, Joe, how are you doing? You alright?

SPEAKER_08 3:43

Yeah, I'm alright, mate. It's been it's felt like a really long season this season, what with World Cup break and Premier Cups and everything else. So um yeah, it's been it's been a long season. It's a shame we're not there at uh The Last Hurdle, but um the game at the weekend will be nonetheless uh I think a good display of of rugby. Um and yeah, down at Queen's home as it's gonna be affectionately in a week, apparently.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

Yes, yep. We'll uh we'll have to wait and see. But for now, let's focus on uh on Saracens and our team of the year. Um we're gonna start like we did with the men, we're gonna start with the backs. We probably need to talk about let's go in the centres. Let's do that first. Um because Sarah McKenna stepped in at centre, having not played there for quite a long time, um, because of the signing of uh of Jess Breach, and I'm gonna rope her into this discussion as well, because she came in and played 15, and you think, yeah, Sarah may be losing possibly losing her place in the side a little bit there, but she she really really stepped up at uh 12, didn't she, Joe?

SPEAKER_08 4:49

I think she's been absolutely superb this season. I think it's probably been one of her best seasons in recent years, actually. I think she's been she's been brilliant, um tackling in defence, in attack, she scored a couple of tries, and let's just um go back to that drop goal because I still sit there and watch it on replay. Um I was stood right behind the goal down at um Dings RSE and watched that sale over with the camera and was so shocked I couldn't even take a picture. So um that's how good um I think she's been this season. I think she's been fantastic. Um so yeah, really, really good in the centres this year, I think, for McKenna.

SPEAKER_04 5:27

Absolutely, yeah. She was one of the easiest picks, I think, for everyone to make in the team. Um, but her semi-replacement at at uh fullback for this season was um was Jess Breach, who basically came in, hit the ground running, and did what we know Jess Breach can do, really, didn't she?

SPEAKER_08 5:41

Yeah, I mean, um she's played uh a couple of games there uh uh for England as well, but um we you know she played most of her uh career out on the wing for for for Quinn's, but uh it just shows that she's versatile and you know once you get to those booster rockets on, it doesn't really matter whether she's coming from fullback or whether she's hering down the wing. She's still fast, and there's not many people that are gonna stop her. So um you know, yeah, I think she's been a great acquisition this year. Um stick her on the wing, stick her in fullback, it it doesn't really matter. You know, she she's um been a really fantastic signing, clearly. Um she's been enjoying her rugby, I think, this this year. Um playing playing nicely with England as well. So um yeah, few few tries to her name this year.

SPEAKER_04 6:28

Absolutely, yeah. She's um she has been fantastic, and I think yeah, it's one of my favourite sights in rugby actually, is watching a stream and a wide-angled camera, and you can just see Jess building up ahead of steam about 10 metres behind the plane, you think, here we go. But yeah, um two pretty uh pretty easy picks in the in the team there, and the other one that was that was very easy for for everyone, and someone who's actually dipped in and out of the team at times a little bit this season is uh is Lottie Clapp, um, who once again fantastically reliable on the wing, um, co-captain in the team now, but um has also in you know in a chat that we had with her this season recognised that she does need to step away occasionally and uh and have a few games off, which she did. I think she played three or four seasons without ever missing a match, and whereas this season that's that's been recognised. But Lofty still had a great season, isn't she, Jo?

SPEAKER_08 7:20

Oh, she's been brilliant, you know, and she's she's obviously been um out at a World Cup as well um for the United States, so she's clearly been recognised that um she she's playing well. Um she's just a steady hand, she's so nice and calm, isn't she? See her on the pitch there, she's always smiling, um except perhaps when she gets a sneaky yellow card, um, which I think was slightly unfortunate, but uh it was probably the only blemish she she's had, um, not just this season, but over a number of seasons I would I would I would estimate. So yeah, Lottie's just always misreliable, isn't she? Miss Clap misreliable. For me, what I really noticed about Lottie this season is um her tackling. She's been she's just been brilliant in defence, I think, this year.

SPEAKER_04 8:09

On the I'm gonna go straight on to the other wing, um, and this is where we do start to have um have a change um in people's thinking. Now, across yourself, me and Jez, who have um who have picked these teams and our followers on Instagram, we found it very easy to pick Corinne Grant on the other wing for Saracen. She's actually, I think, played more games than anyone else on the wing, even more than Lottie Clapp potentially this season, um, and has scored not only her first try, but several others to go with it as well. Um, and if we'd have actually done a sort of um improved or breakthrough player of the season, it's potentially Corinne Grant, is it not?

SPEAKER_08 8:51

Oh yeah, I think I think she's been really enjoying her rugby um this year for both Saracens and for Scotland. Uh, she scored her first try for the Scottish team in the Six Nations as well. Um playing with a smile on her face, and you can just tell that she's in enjoying her rugby, and again, um another one that I wouldn't want to have to uh run after if I was uh trying to trying to tackle her either. She's got some some speed on her as well. So um, and again, I think she's been cracking in defence as well. So um one of the reasons uh that she made my my team of the year was just that nice balance of attack and defence from Corinne. Um and she's just a thoroughly nice person as well. Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:34

Great to speak to her this season, and yeah, I think um you you listen to some of the words that have come out of um out the club, particularly from Alex Osterbury, is is they've finally had a run of games to be able to have Corinne in the team for lots of different reasons. She hasn't been able to play quite as much rugby as um as anyone might have uh wanted her to, and this year it really has been that breakthrough. So she has made all of our teams of the year except for our good followers on Twitter, and we'll come on to the reason why shortly. Um but just very quickly to come back to the other person that has um made everyone's team of the year, and very, very good to see her back in a Saracen shirt this season after a very long time out with injury was Sydney Gregson, um, who probably a little bit under the radar, but has had a very, very, very good season.

SPEAKER_08 10:23

She's just been really consistent, I think. Um, you know, as I say, um consistency is is one of the brilliant things about is about Sydney. You know exactly what you're gonna get with her, she's tough at tackling. Sometimes I think there's three or four Sydney's on the pitch, she just seems to be everywhere. Um, and again, great um on attack as well. So good to see her back. She had uh an awful injury um and then a couple of setbacks as well, which kept her off the field for um pretty much all of last season. Um so it's it's great to see her back there. She again is another one playing with a smile on her face, um always smiling for my camera. Somehow I always it just seems to she seems to be there posing for the camera every opportunity. Doesn't matter whether she's got blood streaming out of her nose and um you know cotton wool sticking out of it, um, or whether she's carrying my dog at the side of the pit. She's um she she's always got a smile for people. Um and again, I think she's played really, really consistently well this this year. Great partnership with McKenna as well, I think.

SPEAKER_04 11:28

Yeah, yeah, that that partnership 1213 has been has been brilliant. And um, you know, we haven't spoken about the likes of Cara Waldle and Hannah Hannah Casey and then Isla Alejandro in the uh in the back line as well, who've who've all contributed quite a lot to this season, but it does just show the talent that we've got in those areas, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_08 11:47

Oh, it does, and we should give actually um Chopper Casey a little bit of a shout out because she um passed her all her training for the London Fire Brigade and often turns up at the matches, including the one down at um Exeter um the other week um in London Fire Brigade uniform, um, having just come off shift. So um, you know, that's that's um you know well done to her, really. I think uh, you know, somebody that's having to carve out that career um and doing really well on that side of of life in general as well. But uh yeah, um Cara co-captained um with Fee McIntosh, beginning part of the season whilst we had our internationals away for a couple of games as well, and I think that's really done her the world of good um this year as well. So um yeah, you know, we could have had two teams of the season if we're being brutally honest, and we'll probably cover that off later as well.

SPEAKER_04 12:38

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, and that's before you even you know, you mentioned the Cup Cup team, and obviously Cara stepping up as captain. I mean, the likes of you know um Abby Evans or even Katie Johnson, who didn't really get to play in the league particularly, but made big, big contributions to that cup team. It does, it's a very well-balanced squad from this season, so it'll be interesting to see what what happens next year. But I've avoided the issue of um of the difficult picks so far, um, and I'm still gonna avoid the most tricky one. We're gonna talk about the scrum half, um, because it is essentially a flip of a coin um at scrum half. Um Anna Goddard, I believe, has has played a handful of um of league games and and a few off the bench in the cup as well, has made a contribution to this season. But Elovirvas and Lian Infante have pretty much shared the game at nine. Um, both different styles of of player, I think, and both um different in terms of the experience they've got at international level, certainly, and and in the club game as well. But I think we all found it very, very, very tricky to choose between the two of them. And I think yourself and I, Joe, have actually gone two different ways, um, and it's been left to our social media followers to uh to settle the difference. So, what was your thinking behind picking Lianne Infante over Elavirvas?

SPEAKER_08 14:04

Um, I just think for me um that when the team has needed somebody in the middle there um calling the shots, you can always hear Leanne. Um and for me, sometimes the girls have just needed that as a little bit of a pick me up and a little bit of direction when things perhaps haven't been going their way. Um, but that said, that was the last position that I filled when I was doing my team of the year. Um, because I think Ella has had again an absolutely superb season, you know, she's been in as part of that England setup as well. Um, she had an England debut. I just think the two of them, I mean, you've got two international world-class scrum arts in the same team and trying to give them an equal um pitting on the field. I mean, rather Alex Osterbury's um choice than mine, actually, because I'd be sitting there probably scratching my head how I could play two scrum arts on the same pitch if I could. Um because both of them, um, you know, speed speed off the um breakdown, speed off the ruck is is just brilliant. Um, and I think they both had fantastic seasons, and and Leanne just edged it just literally by a hairline for me, just with um some of her uh leadership qualities, which I think is gonna come for Ella as well when she gets a bit more experience. Um we have to remember that Ella is still quite young in her career, um, and and Leanne's got that little bit more experience. Um, but I think you know, the two of them, you see them operating together in warm-ups and such like um I think they're a b uh a great pairing, although they can't play together. Um I I think they just really just sort of feed off each other, and you can see that they work hard to improve each other's game. Um, and that must be a really rewarding experience for both of them and for the players around them to see two scrum halves that are desperately competitive to play on the pitch but also support each other um in in terms of getting better and improving. So it was a really, really tough one for me.

SPEAKER_04 16:18

Yeah, yeah, it's hard hard to disagree, to be honest. Um, and I think even you say you can't get them both in the same team. I think actually once or twice this season it did happen very briefly when it was enforced. Um that is actually an advantage of of having Ella in in your team because she's got experience of playing on the wing and even at centre as well, which is a good part of her game. And you're right, she's she's steadily, um steadily improving and and certainly pushing Leanne pretty hard as well, which is um which can only be a good thing. And yeah, I I couldn't separate them at all. Ella got the nod for me because I decided to go for the one that had played more minutes as opposed to the one that had played in the bigger matches, which may or may not be the right way of going about things. There was no logic behind it, I couldn't pick it. Jez has also gone for Ella. Both our Twitter and Instagram followers went for Leanne Infante. I will concede it. Leanne is the scrum half in the team of the year, but Ella's coming on at half time, I think is what we're saying. Easy, yeah. Now, we found that difficult. I don't know that we necessarily individually found fly half more difficult than scrum half, but I think there was just a lot more variety to choose from this season. Any other year, Zoe Harrison's walking into your team of the year as fly half. She unfortunately picked up a terrible injury this year, played six games. And we've got well, four other fly halves that have that have contributed this season. Um you go back to the cup games, Lisa Martin played as she every time I think Lisa has has left the fold at Saracen's, she jumps on a train and pops up again. Kirsty Exley, who stepped in um playing down at old Albanians, who was who was pretty solid in the in the cup as well, it must be said. Um I think Katie Johnson actually played there for one game as well. Um you've then got the signing of Flo Williams, which was very, very astute. Um obviously things not going brilliantly at Wasps, and that did lead to that, so it's a bit of a shame, but a very, very handy pickup. And then, of course, Holly Aitchison coming back in after the start, missing a fair bit at the start of the season, um, and playing the big games as uh as R10. It was pretty tough all round.

SPEAKER_08 18:44

Um it was, and you know, I I think most people, myself included, would probably agree that that they've that they've looked at the back end of the season and perhaps some of the seemingly bigger games. Um we have to remember that Surrey's did not have a great start to the season. Um that said, Zoe had some really, really good games um prior to her injury. Um you know, um, and but then you know, people will have seen Holly come in. Um and again her kicking game it has improved second to none, I think, over the last season, season and a half. Um not just at club but uh at country as well. And she's been she's been sat in um the the number ten shirt um in Zoe's absence um in in the Red Roses setup as well. So um again I think uh without the injury Zoe would probably we'd probably not having this conversation now and we'd probably been having a conversation that who sits at at centre with Holly Aches and um but you know this is this is the joy but also the conundrum um of Saracen's women. You've got so many versatile players that can play different positions um and they seem to just slot in there with these. Um uh but for for me, just around consistency, um Holly pipped it for me.

SPEAKER_04 20:10

Absolutely, yeah. I mean in in trying to look at it myself, I did did very similar to uh to what I did with with Scrum R sort of trying to look at even just the respective amount of time that each of them played, and to be fair, between Holly and and Flo Williams, it was fairly similar. Um there's not really any point in looking at who's kicked the most points, um, which is a stat that's available to us, um, because you have to then look at the types of games they were playing, and let's be perfectly honest, if you're playing against DMP Wasps this season, you're probably gonna kick more than uh in those big games at the back end of the season. So um, although both Zoe and Flo Williams uh have got more points this season than uh than Holly, Holly has played in those bigger games. So I've slightly leaned the other way to uh to what I did at Scrum Half. And I was with you, I'd I'd just had to pick Holly Hison, um started 10 league matches more than either of the other two as well, if we want to look at that. But yeah, very, very tough to do. So you and I agree that uh that Holly is R10, our Instagram followers did exactly the same and picked Holly. Jez went for Zoe, um, which again absolutely fine. The the games that Zoe was able to play, she was pretty much 10 out of 10. Um, but yeah, it was just a shortened bit of the season, which is why we didn't. Um the Twitter polls were the interesting bit. Um when we first put out number 10, um, gave everyone the options, it came out as Holly. Um and then right at the end, we offered up the final place in the backs after everything was done and dusted, and there ended up a straight shootout between Zoe Harrison and Corinne Grant. There's me thinking that Corinne was an absolute shoe-in for everyone's team. Twitter decided otherwise and popped Zoe Harrison in there as well. So there's been a bit of a reshuffle in the Twitter team, and both Zoe and Holly are playing, and Corinne is the one that misses out. Democracy in action, how about that? The forwards is even trickier, I think. So we're gonna have to try and tackle that. I want to go straight to number two. Because on the face of it, it's an easy choice. But actually, that does a great disservice to the fact that we've had two hookers this season who have both been scoring tries for fun and playing brilliantly. So, yes, we've all picked Mae Campbell, but first let's just talk about Jody Retty.

SPEAKER_08 22:45

Jodie Retty, legend. Um I mean, again, she um just so consistent. Her throwing like arrows at the line out. Um, as you said, she's been scoring tries, enjoying a rugby, um and you know, I again just a thoroughly nice person, um, a regular in Scotland side as well, albeit again as a replacement largely. Um, but you see what she does when when she comes on, and what a finisher to cut to come on when you've when you've got that quality of player um ready to take up the mantlet. Um, strong in attack, strong in defence. Um, yeah, brilliant player. Um uh enjoyed watching her play again this season.

SPEAKER_04 23:32

Absolutely, yeah. She's been um been fantastic. I mean, has made a lot of appearances off the bench as well, but what a player to have off the bench, really. Um but Mae Campbell just keeps getting better.

SPEAKER_08 23:44

Uh you know, debut for the Red Roses, um, albeit not one that she she will probably be telling her kids about. Um, but um yeah, she's just I I've spoken to a few people about Mae Campbell who have played against her, and apparently she's one of the most difficult people to tackle across the whole Premier 15s. Now, whether that's because she's four foot eleven um and there's there's not a huge amount of her for tackling, um I would like to argue that it's just her leg drive and the way she secures the ball. There's not many times you see Mae Campbell fumble the ball. Um I've seen her score an outstanding try with her face this year, which um is probably my photograph of the season, um, although she's she's begged me not to share it too many more times on social media. Um but yeah, just an absolutely outstanding player, um, and of course sponsored by the Tarrison Supporters Association, um, and what a player to sponsor. So um she's just been so consistent. Um, loves her rugby, smiles all the time, especially when she's going over the try-line, which you know, coming off a line now, if you're five metres um away from the triline, your money is on Mae Campbell. I would say nine out of ten times that she's gonna um get that leg drive along with the rest of the girls, and she's gonna be the one that's uh picking up the ball and coming up with a smile at the end of it. Uh fantastic season for May. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

Um, and we do um we've always taken the mick out of Mae Campbell for scoring all of her tries from five metres, but I do actually want to bring it back a little bit. Five metres for someone who is four foot eleven is still quite a long way to travel. The next bit, now I'm gonna lump everyone here together, but there is a little bit of a uh a bit of a change among the teams to do. Um, the very easy pick for the vast majority of us, both as hosts of the podcast and on social media, was to pick the trio of Marley Packer, Poppy Cleal, and Georgia Evans. Um worth talking about all three of those before we come on to a little error that may have been made in someone's team. Let's talk about them as a whole, because we talk about all three of them individually all the time. Um how lucky have we been as a club to have? I mean, particularly Poppy and Marley for the time that we've had them, but then Georgia coming into the fold with that as well. They are three absolute monsters in the back row, and sometimes in the second row as well.

SPEAKER_08 26:14

Oh, listen, if you were gonna pick the Prem 15s team of the season, those three would probably make it. Not just the Saracens team of the year, but the Prem 15s team of the year. Um, you know, they can play in so many different positions, they're so versatile, they swap amongst themselves wherever they're gonna play. George has played second row, back row. Um same with Poppy, back row eight, second row, Marley in at seven, Marley in at eight, who knows where Alex is putting them from week to week. Um, and it must keep other coaches and other teams, you know, so much on the back foot thinking, where are they gonna be? And they and it must feel like sometimes there's they're they're seeing twins of them, and not just because Poppy is a twin, but just twins of two or three um Marley Packers um across the field because um uh they've all been brilliant this year. Um, you know, and again Georgia had um an awful injury um that she's come back from. Really good to see her back playing and enjoying her rugby uh both at club and international level, again out at the World Cup. And then um Poppy's had a few niggles this year, um, which has been unfortunate for her. She's missed out on a few games, particularly in the England setup. Um but but again, always good to see her um, you know, with those offloads and and running between her and Marley, they just make a brilliant, brilliant um midfield duo there. That, you know, again, who'd who'd want to come up against those two when they're when they're on fire? And then you've got the Jackal Queen, Marley Packer, um, who's over the ball quicker than uh Flash of Lightning more often than not.

SPEAKER_04 28:04

Before we uh move on, um we do have to uh to point out a clerical error that has uh happened in our team of the year on the Fez cast. Um our esteemed lead host, Jez, um, has managed to pick his team, whether deliberately or accidentally, without Poppy Cleal in it. And I haven't given him a chance to uh to rectify that, so yeah, Jez doesn't have Poppy in his team. So yeah, Jez is um uh deliberate mistake aside. There's uh there is one more position um that everyone has been able to agree on, um, and that is on one side of the front row. Um and actually it does depend on who else you've picked, where this person ends up. Um but Kelsey Clifford um in the front row is in everybody's team of the year. Um another player who it seems like she's been around for ages, actually, but she's actually still only 21, 22, if that, 21, I think. Um, and again, just about on the bubble of uh of England reckoning as well, um, when we had a bit of a mini crisis at at Prop. Um and we've had a mini crisis at Prop at Saracen's as well, but Kelsey has been incredibly consistent throughout all of that, and is very slowly rising up the uh up the table of Saracen's appearance record holders, um, despite only being 21. Um so she's got a pretty bright future, probably, if we can hang on to her, which we obviously hope we do, but very, very good season for Kelsey, isn't it?

SPEAKER_08 29:35

Again, she she's just come on leaps and bounds, you know, she's consistent. Um you can see she's enjoying her rugby, and as you mentioned there before, she's been part of the England setup, she got a debut this year, um, and and it's well deserved. Um, you know, I think she's just made that that step from um England under 20s now and and and straight into that that senior setup um uh with ease and you know, surrounded by by other quality players, she must just be loving her rugby at the minute. And um I I think there's a a few that will be learning from from Kelsey as much as she's learning from them now, with all the experience that she's got. She seems to have been around for ages, um, with the number of appearances that she's had. But um, yeah, as you say, you have to remember that actually she's still quite young, but um is is clearly relishing the experience with when she gets in there, whether she's starting the game or whether she's coming on um uh to finish the game off.

SPEAKER_04 30:45

Exactly. Um and at Tighthead, which is where Kelsey has played the majority of her season, we've been pretty consistent. Um her and and Alex Ellis um as well play pretty well. Alex has been mostly off uh off the bench when we've when we've had enough people to choose from. Before we actually go on to what most people have picked, I I I've taken artistic license in in my team and I have picked Alex Ellis in it, and I've moved Kelsey Clifford over to the other side because actually the two of them between them have had um fantastic seasons. That's the way I went. Um but at Lu said, Kelsey did play a few games, but so did just about everyone else. Yes. Um we have had all sorts going on. Um I'm just gonna run through before we talk about who other people have picked, I'm just gonna run through what's what's happened this season because it is pretty incredible, really. Jody Turl started playing um in the cup, picked up an injury, which is where Kelsey uh Kelsey took over. Um Matt Carson and then Maya Montil, both chopping and changing um in the number one shirt, and have both played brilliantly well. Um pretty sure Mac might have had an injury at some point too, and all through this time we've got no Hannah Bottomman. Rocky Clark played one game, Donna Rose has been missing all season at Tighthead as well. It's not been very good for our props this year. Um, but within all of that, there's probably five or six names on top of Kelsey Clifford and Alex Ellis that you could choose from here. So your thinking, Joe.

SPEAKER_08 32:30

So I absolutely agree with you. Firstly, I think Maya was an absolutely fantastic pickup. Um again, she I I don't I don't think, with the exception of when when she got a knock playing against Loughborough after only being on the pitfield for about three minutes, um, I don't think I've seen her without a smile on her face. Um she's clearly enjoyed joining joining Taritons and and being around the the girls there. Um Mac um seems to have come from absolutely nowhere into the England set up, um obviously obviously uh with the with the Canadian roots, but has been brilliant um and a regular in the Red Rose in the Six Nations team this this year. Um and again, just really, really consistent. Um but unfortunate injury at the start of the season. Um I just don't think uh you can for me look past Hannah Bottoman, who unfortunately is leaving Saratons at the end of this season to go to Bristol. Um, but it's been a store wart for the club over uh a number of seasons since she joined. Um and for me she slotted into the team, and it's probably a slightly sentimental one, knowing that that that bots is going, um, that she makes my my team of the year. Um I think just her absolute passion for the game. Um it's you know, she's had uh an unfortunate number of bumps, both physically and with um something being waived out of a referee's pocket um during the Worcester game. Um but you know, Bristol are getting an absolutely fantastic player, and their their front front row is going to be scary next season. Um so um yeah, it's just um it's a shame that she's going, but but Hannah Bottom makes my team of the year.

SPEAKER_04 34:33

That's fair, and and a lot of people did agree with you as well, Joe, although she's not played very much at all this year. Hannah sort of coming back into the fold right at the end. She played in some big games and she played damn well in them as well, so that um definitely is is fair. Um Jez, for what it's worth, made exactly the same deliberations as all of us, really, and went for Matt Carson. So there's there's a huge amount of different combinations that we can do there, but thanks to social media and to Joe, Hannah Bottomman is in the team of the year, and we've got about nine props on the bench, so uh yeah, that's that. Um the rest is really, really tricky. Um in the second row, and depending on how you've uh how you've picked your team in the back row as well. Um I'm not even sure the best way of um of going through this, but actually I'm just gonna pick out a couple of names um and whether or not they've made it into people's teams. Um because I lumped together Marley Packer, Poppy Clee, or Georgia Evans, and that's before you discuss uh other players at all. Um and within certainly within the back row, Sharifa Casolo and Grace Moore have been absolutely outstanding. Um and you know, it's because we've got Marley Packer and Poppy Clear and Georgia Evans that we've not mentioned them at all yet, but we absolutely have to, um, particularly as depending on how you look at it, both of them have made people's teams of the year. Um Sharifa First um has been playing in the back row, and if she's played like anyone, she has filled the Marley Packer role when Marley's not been there, I think.

SPEAKER_08 36:22

Um all I can say about her is what a player. Um she she she won the awards um for Saracen's player of the year this year, and rightly so. Tackling, ball carrying. I mean, the the the girl just came from nowhere the minute she landed at Saracen's this season, um, watching her in those early cup games, and we were all sitting there going, Well, I mean, who the hell's the girl? Marley's gonna struggle to get back in a team. Um, and you're right, she's just in the mould of Marley Packer. Um uh and you know, Marley will argue that she wants to carry on playing, probably up until at least the next World Cup, um, and perhaps even beyond, but what a player um to to learn from from Sharifa, and again, she's just she's just what a player. That's all I can say about her. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_04 37:16

Yeah, um, and I think we hope we can keep her, I think is um is one thing. I mean, she she's good enough to be in any team's starting lineup in the league. Um we have got people in the way, so we'll see. Um but on Grace, um, different type of player to Sharifa, um, more of a number eight, which is why Jez has got a love in Vora, which is as expected, absolutely right. Um, the whereas Sharifa is that tough defensive, um still very good in attack, obviously, but does a lot of work at the breakdown. Grace does as well, but the highlights for her have been that line break, smashing her way through players, making meters, again, another fantastic player that's come into the team.

SPEAKER_08 38:01

Yeah, I'm sure she won't thank me for calling this, but she is just like a bulldozer. Um uh there, you know, she just crunches through tackles, leg drive. Um, again, a couple of great tries this season for her. Uh and you know, again, another one who landed with us early in the season as a new sign, and then we thought, oh, who is this person? And we're all just sitting there in awe of of her, certainly in those early um cup games, but she's just been brilliant and really, really consistent throughout the season. Um, I don't think that that she's had a bad game. She they she scored that brilliant solo trial where she just galloped from about the halfway line all the way down into the bottom corner um at Stone X, and and she's just she's just a fabulous, fabulous player. Um Saracens have been really, really lucky with with their pickups um this season and their and their new signings, and again another one that we hope to keep hold of going into to next season.

SPEAKER_04 39:04

Absolutely. Um and looking at people's team of the year, um, if we've you know we've got Georgia, Poppy, Marley, that's a full back row, or do you get one or even both of those in as well? Now, everyone's done it differently. So, before we look at everything as a whole, you can put Poppy Cleo in the second row, you can put Georgia Everens in the second row. It depends what we do, but the consistent four and five this season has been Louise McMillan and Fi McIntosh, um both of whom have been solid, reliable, hard to see where they've had a bad game, and they just do their job reliably well, really. That's there's all you can really say about that. They've been ultra consistent there, haven't they? Both of them.

SPEAKER_08 40:00

Yeah, I mean, both of them are line out queens. You know, I think they've both been outstanding in the line in the line outs, um, picking up those arrows from from both May and from Jody. Um, but turning the ball over as well. Um, you know, um Louise has been for uh first season, scored a couple of tries. Um unfortunate um towards the end of the season, unfortunately had glandula fever and it really um hit her for six, and um hopefully um she's she's doing a lot a lot better now and and made it back for the um semi-final game. But um both those players are brilliant players again in in the second row, as you say. Consistent, I don't think they've either of them had a a poor game. Fee co-captained at the beginning of the season um with with Kara um and and captained uh in our own right a couple of games actually. Um and and I think that for her will have done her confidence um the absolute world of good um because she really showed some excellent leadership um during those games as well that that I certainly saw her play in um live. And um again, a young player that is is starting to build all those really great qualities um of a second rower um that you need. But as you say, we can interchange a number of people. Um you know, Thee and Louise are more specialist second rowers, so to speak, which is why they both made my teeth team of the year. Um, but yeah, you could arguably put a number of other people um in into there um should you need to.

SPEAKER_04 41:51

Yep. Um and you know what what we have to say is that everybody has done it differently. Um there's no there's no correct way of picking this team, and I think it shows shows that in what Alex Osterbury had to do in the semi-final and dropped Fee McIntosh to the bench, um, which is incredibly harsh call, but it had to be made because uh someone has to be on the bench, basically. So, yeah, you've picked um that out and out second row. I've gone for the option of putting Poppy Cleal in the second row alongside Louise McMillan and picked Sharifa Casolo, which means I've dropped Fee unbelievably harshly to the bench as well. Jez has managed to pick both of them in the absence of Poppy Cleal, so you know. Our Instagram followers went very similar to me, but picked Fee McIntosh over Louise McMillan, with Poppy Cleal in the second row and Sharifa Casolo in the back row. And on Twitter, total artistic licence, didn't pick either Louise McMillan or Fee McIntosh, and their four to eight is Poppy Cleal, Grace Moore, George Reverend, Sharifa Casolo, Marley Packer. So quite who's jumping in the line out there, not 100% sure, but it's a massive back row. So look, it there's so many different ways of picking that team, and it's it's a real testament to how strong we've been this season, ultimately coming up short, but a huge, huge team effort. Um, but yeah, the last things that we need to do, I'm not going to dwell too much on this because we've we've spoken about all of them in in great depth, but we we did ask for um for a few other awards. A signing of the season, we've made several of them, so many that I split it in two, and we're having a forward and a back for signing of the season. The backs was pretty much a done deal straight away. Jess Breach. Um plenty of other good signings as well, but she has been incredible. The forwards was a trickier decision, I think. Um ultimately on social media, and I agree, they've picked Sharifa Casolo, but you could pick Grace Moore, you could pick Louise McMillan, you could pick one of several props. you reckon John?

SPEAKER_08 44:02

Um yeah for me yeah Jess easy pick it in in in the back there although again I think Lianne has has come in and and been brilliant this season as well um so you know you could you could argue that Lianne was probably in with a with a decent shout of of getting that um as well um I just think uh for me uh for the for the forward of the season um in terms of new signing for me Sharifa just gets it um and and that's just I think she's she's so consistent um she might not have um she might not be on the on the try score sheet every single game but you can just just see her all over the pitch tackling driving but but Grace Moore would have been within a hair breadth of that as with Louise McMillan. I think there's just been some really astute signings um in in the last 12 months and we will wait to see with baited breath if and what occurs um as the signings start to eke out on social media um already in the lead up to the next season it's going to be like Game of Thrones I think um over the couple of months.

SPEAKER_04 45:18

Absolutely um so the next one we did was a young player of the season um and I arbitrarily chose 24 as the uh as the top end for a cut-off there I do find in a way that for the women's game particularly it choosing a young player of the season isn't necessarily the best thing to do because the development rate is often different people come in and out of the game you can be new to the game at 27 28 and still make a good fist of it so it is unfair but I did it anyway and the three I offered to people to choose from were Kelsey Clifford Fee McIntosh and Elavirvas and I do realise that I could actually have put Hannah Bottoman in there and forgot. So sorry everyone so between those three um on Twitter you went for Kelsey Clifford on Instagram you went for Fee Macintosh I've gone for Kelsey Clifford as well um I think yeah she's been ultra consistent this season but so has Fee and so is Ellis and I think it was a very very tricky uh tricky poll all round but um I don't know Joe are you are you gonna throw anything into the mix? No I guess I I went with Kelsey and I think um I think some of that will will just be about the the consistency she's had this season and probably um most of last season as well um she was there or thereabouts um I think her breakthrough this year has just been um in that international setup with the Red Roses as well um which I think will only just make her um a a better player you know having Mac in there playing with her um both with the international on the international and the club scene as well as all the other experience you've got you know you've got Hannah Potterman you've got Alex Elliots they're all Maya Monteal they're all international front rowers um it's just an absolute nightmare for a coach trying to pick um uh and I I've learned uh to appreciate Alex Osprey and his coaching team's role even more having struggled with that that team of the year um because as you say arguably we we even struggled to make it a team of 23 if we've been brutally honest and fill the bench um you know we've had a couple of retirements this this year um with both Kat Evans and and Vicky Fleet oh again unfortunate with her injury if she'd have been playing consistently um as we know she has over years and years of playing um international crow club rugby uh we'd probably all be thinking about Fleeto on the list there as well um so it's it it's been it's been a tremendous season for for individuals within the club um but for for the club um as a whole really I think yeah and on that basis there's about 25 players to choose from for a player of the season across the whole squad I did the hard bit and I narrowed it down to a poll of four um so I think that's where my remit ends to be honest because that was a harsh thing to do so to get those four down to one was incredibly tough.

SPEAKER_08 48:36

There's been a lot of votes for Mae Campbell there's been a lot of votes for Marley Packer Poppy Cleal in there as well Jess Breach as well and yeah everyone else we could mention but things are split so I'm putting pressure on you Joe it's coming down to you know as I say you you could have picked any one of those plus added um uh a f a few more um but for me the the the player of the season with their consistency um just their sheer will to put their body on the line all the time um scored some brilliant tries is always there or thereabouts is Mae Campbell but I think she's just been um absolutely brilliant this season um and I'd like to see her next season come often over to the fans and speak to us with less blood coming from her nose and less black eyes um if I'm gonna say anything but if she's going if she's gonna go and throw her body on the line and and score these tries um I'll I'll take it I'll just make sure I carry around a few more ice packs for her.

SPEAKER_04 49:45

Can't really say fairer than that and you know there is a symmetry there with uh the awards that myself and Jez handed out last season we were split as well with Marley Packer and and Mae Campbell and in the end we divided it down the middle and we said Marley was our professional player of the year and May was our not professional player of the year. And you never know May might have some good news soon and she might be getting into that England reckoning a little bit more so wouldn't qualify as a non-professional player of the year anymore but she's won it outright this year so thank you very much Joe that is it all of our awards women's season done thank you very much Joe for taking us through that has been really really difficult.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Back to Jezz Osterberry here director of rugby for Starrison's women you're listening to the Starrison's Fezcast this is the Fezcast

Lucy Wray

SPEAKER_00 50:47

well welcome to our um big interview and returning to the Fezcast um we spoke to Lucy Ray at the start of the season and talked about a lot of different subjects and we're really happy that Lucy's come back because actually there's a lot of those subjects we talked about that first time Lucy that um have sort of like developed and perhaps need further um discussion.

SPEAKER_05 51:11

Yeah absolutely I'm I'm I'm keen to sit in the hot seat and be quizzed by you both so let's go.

SPEAKER_00 51:17

Well absolutely well yeah I mean it's me and Matt in um in in in the uh in the seat today and I mean first of all I mean we sit here now a couple of weeks after the end of the men's season um and we're looking forward to the summer as I say we're looking forward to a summer off from presenting the freshcast and producing it but I mean give us a a few thoughts on your your look on the the the the season at the club and how well it's gone.

SPEAKER_05 51:41

I mean the premiership win I mean how how good does it feel yeah it's it it's a it's a weird one for me because I think the overwhelming feeling was actually relief. It was just like this kind of I could feel it building when we went down by two points I could feel myself getting emotional going oh god I'm not sure I can cope with losing again um because I think actually it's that it's the pain of losing that stays with you the longest and actually the happiness of winning is almost it's amazing in the moment but then it it's it's gone it was last week and you kind of you know you tick the box and you're like right next thing um but for me it was just that you know I I only allowed myself to believe it with about 90 seconds to go um and just felt so relieved mainly because I guess the level of expectation is I I expected us to win because like I know we've got a you know an amazing squad we had amazing people and obviously anything can happen in a final but when you put that level of expectation in it is just that the relief that we've done it that we we've done what we set out to do and kind of you wanted it you wanted that win for so many people like for you guys the fans but for the players the staff everyone that kind of stuck with us through a pretty rocky patch and so that was the most satisfying to see the happiness in other people's faces um for me and there was a lot of players actually was their first premiership win you know Elliot Daly hadn't won a premiership before Ben Owl Max um Theo so it was an amazing experience for them it's their first one and that feels different as well so incredible seeing them go through that and a lot of staff that have never experienced a premiership winner either you know young SC team physios um so for everyone really it was kind of special oh absolutely I mean there was lots of words bandied around after the final in the immediate aftermath about you know um a culmination of a of a journey an end of a you know of a of a period of time saracens back where they belong all these different things I mean how how does it feel is it is it like you know the end of a chapter now or I don't think it's ever really the end of a chapter when you work with people who are so unbelievably competitive to like set the standards and we don't often talk about winning actually but we just we talk about wanting to be market leaders and setting the standards and and obviously we love winning and um and I think it's just like we talk I had a chat with Mark before it's like right how do you motivate people to go again and it's often not overthinking it. It's not you know there's no kind of rocket science science it's just brilliant basics and putting people first looking after each other and like enjoying winning together but there's just I can't tell you how much like detail and planning and thought goes into absolutely everything with Saracens and the people you have doing it who like care unbelievably will stay up for like six seven hours just looking at tapes, analyzing data looking at what and thinking ahead I think we've got a very good group of people who plan for three years time, five years time like what the overall ambition is like what's that northern star that we're really trying to go for so I don't think the journey ever ends. It's just like another kind of magic moment in the journey um but it just kind of sets the sights higher for what people want to achieve.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

Well absolutely the story of the I'll say the six piece because the seven piece has got a naughty word in it but the six piece proper preparation and planning for events poor performance.

SPEAKER_04 55:28

But yeah Matt I'll um hand over to you now because I know you've got a very important question to want to ask well to be honest the first thing I was going to say was was that I'm probably one of the most glad people that we won that final because if we didn't then I would never go to a final again because I've got too many painful memories of going to Cardiff and losing and last year's final as well and starting to think that I was the curse. So I was there this time round all good. But yeah I've got a question from that's actually popped up a little bit around some of the uh the forums and things and from a lot of other fans and actually the question so far has been about Leicester Tigers winning last year and there's a winner's award it that um that we're aware happens um and obviously the spotlight is now on us now given uh the obvious history that we've uh we've had it's obviously going to be in a lot of people's minds how that process happens how long it takes um because we obviously from a fan side haven't even heard anything about Leicester yet maybe that means it's all good I don't know um but just um I'm aware that there's probably bits that you can't tell us but how far down the pathway with that audit for the uh for the winners of the league are we? Um because yeah we want to put that to bed.

SPEAKER_05 56:37

It's really only just started because it's it's quite a kind of very rigorous process and actually we're like this sounds a bit strange but we're actually quite excited to do it because we know we're so confident that we have done everything in our powers to make sure that we are like super good on the salary cap. I can't even I mean hopefully we are like gold standards setting the standards for how to manage the cap and how to communicate with the salary cap officer. So you know we think we we're very confident the process it is rigorous. I know we've just had to hand over our servers because they like go through every single email uh they look at tax returns of over half the squad they can take mobile phones and look at WhatsApp groups WhatsApp messages on my phone or anyone's phone they choose who they want so it's quite a lengthy process and it can take a while but all I can say is that you know I think you know in a weird way we're quite excited to do it.

SPEAKER_00 57:40

Oh absolutely I mean I think and it was something I think um I'd like to revisit later on in the interview in relation to going forward in the future if that's okay Lucy but um you know we talk about investment we talk about money we talk about all these things when we interviewed you before you talked about there being a five year plan in place in in ref reference to investment and and you know the club becoming debt free with all of the development of the newsstand and everything else that goes on and we've seen great news today about the new Saracens primary school as well that's come out it's absolutely fantastic but you know you talked about that five year plan we're now getting on towards one year um you know a full season away from you discussing that I mean how how is the club doing against that are you behind schedule are you ahead of schedule or are you bang on schedule at the moment?

SPEAKER_05 58:35

I think we we are tracking really well on the plan and what how it how it it's all basically about cash. So it's we put the funding model together and the capital raise of 32 million and in that we had lots of lots of that money was spent on like finishing the West and stadium development and other things and obviously a large portion of it were for ongoing losses and trending in the right direction. So we have stayed within the funding model for every year of that plan to date so we're coming into the final year of the funding model. So from that perspective given that you know we did lose two home games last season and actually all our fans are incredibly loyal and understanding about that but inflation cost of living prices energy costs like you know tough economic period as well so I think we have ridden that and adjusted very well and stayed within the funding model um which takes quite a lot of discipline so um I think our senior team and the finance team have done brilliantly to do that and we've continued to invest in the women's game and the Oasis and the playground at Stoneck Stadium. I I would say if I if I'm honest I would have but maybe because I'm Glass half full I would have loved to be ahead of the plan and beating it and smashing it out of the park but we're not we're but we're we're right on it we're staying within that funding model which I think actually is a pretty good result given everything that every business has had to go through um over the last few years and over this period. 2024 which is the summer after the end of this five year funding model and obviously we're discussing the future funding model and where we're going but that 2024 season is quite a pivotal pivotal year because you've got the new professional game agreement between the RFU and the clubs for English players you've got a new broadcast contract you know we've got some big sponsorship contracts which are up for renewal be the first year of those new contracts so that although next year we will look to grow our revenue and and still kind of trend in the right direction in terms of the losses that 2425 season will will be quite pivotal for us. But we do so I'm going on quite a lot but it's quite a difficult question but so we try and focus on how we control our own destiny so we're not like I don't want to be reliant on a broad one broadcast contract or an RFU deal kind of determining our future. So we look at the gap that we have to get to kind of a breakeven level at an eBit DA level. And we then we kind of we really focus on breaking that down and where that's going to come from and this is where I think diversifying revenue lines is really important and that kind of Saracen's group level will come into it. So you know there's there's only a certain amount that can come from kind of growth of traditional rugby revenue lines like ticketing and hospitality like some of it will have to come from a bit of like out of the box thinking in terms of the group and tenants at Stonex Stadium and how we use um the stadium and the the real estate how we use our events businesses and the UK investor show that the group owns to bring in cash and how we kind of grow revenue as a group because ultimately I don't care where the money's going to come from if we just think of it as a group and we need to think kind of differently because I don't I don't think a rugby club in isolation is going to get to that kind of financial sustainability on its own.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:14

Well that's a really interesting thing you say there um Lisa and it takes me on to our next question about the current status of top flight rugby union in England and I mean we've seen three clubs go to the wall this season uh Worcester Wasps and London Irish and I've got two questions that perhaps you may not be able to answer but you'll I'm sure we'll have an opinion on but first of all why did it happen and second of all and perhaps more importantly why was it allowed to happen I mean I guess why did it happen is I think a lot of clubs and I've spoken to you guys before I think when we spoke we talked about a table only having one leg and needing like a wider base and four legs and that's why we chose to like bring new investors in and a brilliant consortium of investors who are fully committed to the club because I think what's happened is you know like every business I mean like hundreds and thousands of businesses have gone into administration or failed over the last four or five years.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:15

This is not unique to rugby but I think a lot of clubs are reliant on one shareholder to keep them going. And you know whatever happens to that shareholder's business it just the the the the sum of losses having to go through COVID and everything I've just mentioned with the kind of energy prices and if you don't have a long-term commitment of funds and you're kind of not just reliant on one person you you can get into real trouble. And I think it'd be wrong on wrong of me to comment on individual clubs and and their their cases but I think ultimately that's what happens you know you don't have the long term commitment you're too reliant on one person.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:57

That's interesting you say I don't know if Matt agrees with me because I mean a lot of criticism will come from other clubs is in so much as that Saracens for many years were beholden to to Nigel as the main shareholder a man who had money that he wished to invest in rugby and did so and and because of that gained a lot of success.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:19

Certainly my family's always been very aware that the club was vulnerable when it was just us like definitely because you never know what someone's personal circumstances are. You don't know what how it's going to affect someone's business or like you know that's helping to fund the club. So you know you just and that's where we are all in yes we all love the game but it's not hobby anymore. It's a it's a it's a business it's a big business and um you know you have to run it like a business you have to run it you know sustainably you have to you know think what you can afford work within your means think forward thinking what's the next five years what's the what are what funds are we going to need over this I think maybe people underestimated the impact of COVID and thought it would be kind of a one season thing and actually the repercussions have been you know several several years now and it's still ongoing. So yeah I think I think it it it that would that would be my my take on it and I don't I don't think we set the standard of one person because that happens in sport all over the world it's normally like it's not just us like one you know that's every sport organization. It's just like with football like it used to be millionaires own football clubs and then it was billionaires and now it's like whole countries that own football clubs because that's how much it costs sport costs a huge amount of money and you just you've got to look at your own business and how to fund it and you could all like you could look at Newcastle and they they run it really tightly they run it to they run it in a very kind of sustainable um Way and I'd say they run it um and they run it within their means and they run it responsibly.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:06

Yeah, that's very good. Um I don't absolutely agree there. Matt, do you want to come in?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:11

Well, to be honest, what I was gonna say actually is is that in all of that, we're we're obviously incredibly grateful to to Nigel for just the government of the club. Yeah, that's what we have to do, really. Um and you're right, I think just the fact that rugby has evolved quite a lot over the last 30 years, um, and yeah, we're not in a position anymore where it's you make yourselves very vulnerable if you're, like I say, beholden to one person. Um and in a in another parallel universe, things might have gone very, very badly for us. But one of the questions we'd written down was about ensuring how clubs don't go to the wall in future, and I think you've answered that really with with talking about diversifying income. I mean, I absolutely hate the term agile business, but that is exactly what Saracens needs to be, and and so that works perfectly for me.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:02

But um, I was gonna ask, you did ask why was it allowed to happen, which I've seen a lot in the media, and I do because essentially I've heard people say, why did PRL allow that to happen? But Premiership Rugby is essentially the clubs, it's 75% the clubs. So what you'd be asking the other clubs to do, who are all struggling and losing money, is to prop up you know, three other clubs and pay off well over 150 million of accumulated debt across the which is just was never going to be able to happen. You'd lose the whole premiership if you did that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:39

So I'm not only so and also the RFU as well, Lucy. You know, where people are criticizing the RFU, but they've got a wider responsibility. I mean, it's very easy for us uh looking at Saracens and Wasps and whoever is, but you know, there's hundreds and hundreds of of grassroots clubs who rely, and and Saracens and all the other clubs rely on these grassroots clubs, giving the first exposure to players who are going to play for Saracens in the future.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:04

Yeah, it was reported that I think WASPs had well over a hundred million of debt on their own, and both Worcester and London Irish had tens of millions of debt. I I I just I find it difficult to read from people on social media that they expected the RFU or PRL, which is essentially the other clubs, just to write out a check and solve those problems. It's just that was never ever gonna be possible.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:28

This is something that we didn't write down, so I'm not gonna expect you to respond to this, Lucy. But the other thing that we've seen in all of that is people um saying that it's entirely our fault um with everything that happened with the salary cap and things like that. But as you say, WASPs tens and tens and hundreds of millions in debt. The Premiership rugby salary cap is a lot less than that.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:50

Um, we can be responsible for a hundred million of debt and uh yeah, tens of millions of debt. I'm not sure uh yeah, when the salary gets set up five and six million respectively, we can be uh blamed for that.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:04

Of course. Yeah, yeah. Apologies for chucking that in, but it's uh it's off my chest. Um moving on from that though, there is a a sporting commission that's been that's been set up that's being led by Nigel Melville to hopefully work through some of um the perceived issues of of um of rugby in in England. Is it something that um Saracens and the board are sort of being consulted on or informed of? Um are we involved at all in in the setup of that or is it just something that's ticking over at the moment?

SPEAKER_05 1:09:33

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think it's been it's been kind of worked through and planned with all the clubs as stakeholders, and um we're fully behind it because basically it's you've got you as you use the word agile, but you can't be agile if you've got to have every single club agree. And we've all got you know different priorities and different conflicts and different business plans. So you do need something that can like unblock the system basically and allow decisions to be made rapidly, quickly, effectively, because otherwise you're asking the PRL executives to kind of manage the league with one hand behind tied behind their back. Um, I think we welcome this, welcome that you know it's made up of independence as well. Um, because I just think it's wrong to have um, you know, clubs judging other clubs or determining the outcome of anything that might affect another club because you just ultimately you can't think, you know, other than with your own club hat on. It's very, very difficult to be completely independent. So um, yeah, I we fully support it and have um we everyone kind of got a chance to veto you, the um non-exec, um the iNeds that were sorry, that were coming on the commission. And um, yeah, they look like really good, good people, and I think it's a great step forward.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:54

So I suppose I mean it leads us on to the onto the last part of this question, in so much as that is that it now? Is it a 10 club premiership? That's going forward. Whether there's promotion, relegation, whatever, if if there's other clubs that are going to come in, we don't know. But 10 club premiership, I suppose less amount of clubs makes it easier to agree as well. I mean, unless you've got somebody who's who is a bit uh you know the bulgey one at the corner, shall we say? I don't know, but I mean, is is that it now? Is it you know, this is the model going forward, a 10 club premiership?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:26

To my knowledge, yes. It's a 10-team structure. I say that because obviously nobody wanted it to happen in this way, but for quite a long time, like broadcasters especially have been pushing for a 10-team league. Um, because it de-conflicts the calendar. So, what what broadcasters and I'm sure fans hate is when you know Saracens are missing half their squad because it's in the Autumn Internationals or the Six Nations, and you have one of your biggest matchups. Like I think we've played Leicester and Sale in recent seasons in in the Six Nations window. And we we've got used to managing that, but that's not what people want to see, and ultimately, you know, it's what the fans want and it's what the TV broadcasters want, is that they want less conflict and less clashes, and that will actually help PRL and R if you work collaboratively together, because it just removes conflict, you know. And so I think that obviously devastating that it had to happen by default almost in this way, but it is it is one of the things that people have been speaking about for a long time in terms of and it's good for player welfare as well, in terms of managing game time. Um, so yeah, I do think it's the way forward, I think it's here to stay. And in time, it would be good to sort out Premiership Two as well, and make sure that there's a thriving second division. But I think I do think the focus has to be on cementing premiership one and making sure it's financially sustainable, and then ultimately I think everyone is behind getting a strong Prem two or whatever that looks like.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:03

Well, indeed, and the and the the chat around the cup competition next year, including championship sides or whatever. I think it's yeah, you're right, it's all steps in the right direction. So now we'll move on to next season, if we may, Lucy, and we'll revisit what we were talking about earlier on as well. And and say, you know, for next season, we're seeing an exodus of talent from a number of clubs, um, with players heading overseas. And I mean, we're seeing the Japanese yen being very powerful, the French euro checkbooks are being opened left, right, and center. We've managed to negate an awful lot of that. We've not lost players in the same way as, you know, for argument's sake, Exeter Chiefs are the prime example. If you go on Twitter, you see almost an announcement every day of another player that was leaving at one point or other during the season. The question is, and and this is you know, it's a fairly open question, I suppose, but how has Saracens managed to hold on to the players that we have done? Bearing in mind that perhaps there's going to be more announcements uh over the summer. We we don't really know. And and what do you do to retain the loyalty of those those players? Because it isn't all about cash in the back pocket, is it?

SPEAKER_05 1:14:17

No, I was actually I was doing like a talk like internally to our team about like the recent journey we've all been on. So, you know, November 2019 was salary cap, and then I've got to remember it now, but then we were relegated, then we lost Alliance, um, then COVID hit, um, and then we lost the opening game. Then we were worried the championship wouldn't get started, then we lost the opening game of the championship. Um, but then we won the championship, and the winner with the women's team won the P15s, we got to the final, lost in the last minute, and now we've won our sixth title. I was like, that's quite some journey for under three years. And how have we kept everyone together during that time? Like players, key staff, you know, everyone together, fans. And ultimately it is just because of culture and and it is because of people, and it is because we've put people first. We've winning's been important, but it's not the be an all-and-end-all. It has to be done in the right way by looking after people and making decisions in their best interest. Um, and I think you know, what what we went through actually strengthened those relationships hugely. And I think because we've been looking after people and working on our culture and relationships for well over a decade, like you build up an incredible like loyalty. Um, and I think that's why we continue to retain players because they know they're part of something special, they're part of something bigger than just winning a trophy.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:50

I don't know whether again, Matt, whether you agree with me. I I sometimes get the impression that if there was a player who was perhaps wavering about doing something, that maybe Owen Farrell turns up and gives him one of these Hadington bear stairs and just uh says, no, no, you're part of this. I'd love to say team or squad, you're part of this family. And that's definitely, you know, when you see after the final as well, the the the the togetherness of all of the guys there, I suppose that's what makes a difference. And I and I suppose I and I guess that just comes from the top from yourself and all the other people who you know who who run the club in the way that you run it so well.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:29

Yeah, it's uh definitely not just me, but a lot of people, like from you know, our board and shareholders all the way down. There's some you know, very committed, passionate people who all have kind of one goal and one way of wanting to do things, and I think that's very powerful. I was gonna say, in terms of like the squad, the squad's kind of done. There aren't any more announcements in terms of players leaving or anything like that. Um, there's a couple of like long-ish, medium, long-term injuries that we might get some injury dispensation for, where we can bring in a few extra players. So just say, watch this space on that. But nobody else is leaving.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:06

Right. So Big Billy's staying, and that's that's good news. Brilliant. Excellent. Matt, go on over to you.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:12

That way we could sit and talk about players staying and going all the time, couldn't we? But that's not what we're here for. Um, I mean, what I did want to say just off the back of that is um obviously you did um talk to uh uh Saracen's members as well uh last week or the week before. And actually, I was going to bring up that timeline that you that you mentioned, um, obviously, of all of the bad stuff that has happened over the last um last few years and just how quickly um recovery is the wrong word, I think, but um just how quickly everything's developed from that and the journey that we've been on. I think off the back of that, having spoken to a few people afterwards, I think it actually grounded a lot of us as fans on just how short a period of time that that really is. Because I think for us, season by season, you know, last season Freddie Burns' drop goal seems like a long, long time ago now, and actually it does all distort a little bit, particularly with COVID and things involved. So that is um I'm very grateful for uh for you being there for that as well. Um, but yeah, sort of sliding into uh into other bits about players, we've obviously got a rugby World Cup coming up, um, and that always changes players' values almost overnight sometimes if they have a good World Cup, a bad World Cup, a bad injury and things. Um what sort of strategy does it do uh do you have at Saracens to sort of keep an eye on what's going on at World Cups and what then potentially happens the next summer with um players all of a sudden becoming hot property or uh or not in some in some cases? Is it is it actually quite a challenge for you to uh to to cope with that sort of sliding scale of what happens with players?

SPEAKER_05 1:18:49

Uh it's more it's more for the for the coaching team, it's more how you I'd say the the tricky thing is how you transition players back into your squad after a World Cup because some will be really happy, some will be really disappointed, some might be injured. So I think that they put a lot of thought into that, into how they kind of a for the players who weren't at the World Cup and have gone through a tough pre-season and played really hard, and and actually we've got quite good because we've just we're good at managing that through the Autumn International Six Nations anyway, so it's no different, but ultimately we want a winning England team because like for English rugby to be prosperous, you want ultimately everyone wants England to win because that's only going to be good for like participation levels, like audience growth, everything in this country. So we want a winning England team, we want winning clubs in Europe, and I think that everything kind of cascades down from there. Um we want our players to be successful on an international stage, like we want that for them. Um, when you kind of put people first, you we've got to put the club aside to one. So, you know, otherwise we'd want them all to get knocked out before the quarterfinals, which is not what we want. We want them to go on and you know, we want Owen Farrell to be, you know, the England captain lifting that trophy. We want that moment for him and his family and the club and everything. So kind of, you know, there are the the the um consequences of salary inflation, etc. But going back to that loyalty point, I think we've created an environment that is much more than just about money, and we've created an environment that is incredibly difficult to leave. So um, yeah, so I I you know it's it's something we'll manage, but it's not something we're too worried about.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:42

Well, I suppose that's the um the the the two points there are. I mean, one, it it must be a nice, actually a nice problem to have when you if you do have 10 England players coming back as world champions, as potentially could happen, you know, and 10 players suddenly turn around and saying, Well, we're the marquee player now, and I mean that's a nice challenge to have to have those players. Um, and obviously, you know, uh, second of all, the one thing we you would say is that no player is bigger than the club. I mean, I'm I'm a huge West Ham fan, Lucy, and you know, we've won a European Cup, and now look at Declan Rice moving on, but it will go on, you know, somebody else will come in, and you know, even if it's Mara Atozi or whoever, maybe looking for a new challenge after the World Cup, they're not bigger than the club, are they, Lucy?

SPEAKER_05 1:21:30

No, no, you're dead right. No one person's bigger than the club.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:34

No, that's great to say. I'd like to move on now, if we may, um, to the women's team, because obviously the women's team have had a disappointment into the season. I mean, for the first time ever, they're not in the the the the final of the competition. Um, you know, it's been a very disjointed season for them with the World Cup out in New Zealand, and uh, you know, players like Marley Packer and Poppy Clear and everything, they've probably had more disappointments in this season than they've had in the rest of their rugby career. I mean, how how is how is the club dealing with those sort of challenges for that for that side of the of the of the team?

SPEAKER_05 1:22:11

I think you know the women's games exciting in a way because so many other clubs are now taking it like really seriously and investing money, and so it's gonna become so much more competitive. So to kind of keep ahead of the game and keep setting standards and keep being in finals, we're just gonna have to work a hell of a lot harder. And um, I think that excites us, and like we're looking at how we can kind of strengthen the coaching team for the women next year around Alex and get more support, and how we can better the environment and and build them. But God, you know, it's you know, margins in Exeter, that was, you know, it could have gone, could have gone the other way at half time. I stupidly felt very confident, and we had total control. Um, but you know, knockout rugby, that's what happens, and you know, fair play to Exeter, because actually Tony Rowe has done an incredible job down there with the women's team and and really kind of gone for it and invested. We actually need that to happen. You want that to happen for so many years, it's just dominated by Saracens and Harlequins, which isn't good for the league. But now you've got Bristol and Exeter and Gloucester and and others and Leicester joining next season, it's gonna become a much better product, which is great for the game, which is fantastic. It's what we want.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:27

Well, indeed, as well. And I mean, obviously, it gives you extra revenue. Uh, that's Stonex as well, because the more games you put on, or the women that are a higher, greater profile, you know, the more bums on seats, more people spending money in the concessions, whatever. It can only be good, can't it?

SPEAKER_05 1:23:43

Yeah, and actually, to be honest, losing makes us work harder. It's like you learn more from losing, and you you it makes you really double down, and we kind of go back to that that pain of losing lasts a lot longer. It does really push you and drive you um to make sure you're not there in the same place next season.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:03

I think it's pretty refreshing, really, when you know we hear the CEO of uh of a club say, actually, do you know what? It's not such a bad thing losing occasionally, or at least everyone being more competitive. It is that that bigger picture, which is brilliant. And um, another part of the bigger picture is um is the Mavericks. Um, we've been lucky enough to uh to speak to a few of the players on the odd occasion and and coaches as well, um, and they've been very nice to us and not taken the mick too much about our lack of in complete lack of netball knowledge. Um but yeah, recently I spoke to to Kira Rufflow and and Lisa Matha, and um one of the things that actually before we even started recording, they wanted to make sure that they um that they get in is just talking about how the culture at Saracens um is filtering into into their team and how they were they were very, very grateful to be honest about um the fact that Saracens are as are involved as they are with things like the S C team being full-time and them having access to all of the same same facilities like that. Um the main question really was is is that a very deliberate, very conscious action that's evolving from the club? But actually, I wanted to ask them as well, and we didn't quite get to it properly. Is is there things that are now filtering back from the Mavericks to the rest of the Saracens group in terms of culture, ways of working and things, and and you know, how much are we all learning from having the Mavericks involved with Saracens?

SPEAKER_05 1:25:26

Yeah, well, hopefully, as you can imagine when we first started talking, I talked about like the depth of thought and detail that goes into this wasn't just an accident, but like what I can say is it's actually been like a because you run what we've tried to do is integrate both women's teams into the whole kind of group setup. So Philip Morrow, who's the the GM across all three teams, has been and I remember like we're actually really proud to sit 12 months forward because 12 months ago, or bit over 12 months ago, the Mavericks wasn't a happy place. There was a lot of like you know, just unhappy players, and you know, I wouldn't go as far as saying a toxic culture, but it just wasn't a Saracen's way of doing things or and we kind of were looking at ourselves, gosh, a bit like you guys going, we are slight newcomers to Netball, and uh, so we're gonna have to get some really good people in. But we it was a very kind of conscious decision is we need to make changes because if it's carrying our, you know, they're part of the Saracen's family and it's carrying our brand, we want it to be done in our way. And actually, one of the exciting, challenging things is okay, we've we've found a way of doing things for a men, our men's team, but how can we do that across you know multiple teams or or you know, different sports indeed with Netball, um, and applying the same kind of I guess values and and and kind of motivations, and and that that was exciting with the mass to like make the changes and be bold and make some big calls um and promote Cam, who's a very young coach, but has done like unbelievably well. She has got an unbelievably happy squad who love the culture, and that's like that transformation in 12 months, just it's so exciting now for next season. Um they're just recruit, they've just been doing recruitment over the last two weeks, which were not allowed to announce England netball rules till I think mid-July. But recruitment's gone unbelievably well. Whereas last season it was very difficult to attract players or indeed retain players because we just didn't have it wasn't a happy place to be. So, you know, giving them full time SNC, full time physio, like a full time team manager, putting the ecosystem there, but then also just making them feel part of everything, like part of the photo shoots and getting all our club partners behind the Mavericks, inviting them to all the club events. Like I've seen loads of the Mavericks at the men's games and the women's games. Um And our women's rugby players at the mouse games, and all of our men's coaches take their kids to the mouse games, and it just feels there's much more like interconnectivity and support. You know, seeing Goody after a men's game, seeing the mouse players and inviting them over for a drink in the chaining room, and so like just everyone looking out for each other and working together. And I'm I'm I'm really excited for the mouse season next season. I just think we could break into that top four and it'd be brilliant to see.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:31

Well, that's that's great to hear, Lucy. I don't know, and I think it's it's all credit to yourself and everybody within the organisation that there is such a drive still um and such um ambition left within the club. I mean, it'd be very easy to turn around and say six trophies for the men and you know rest on laurels. Uh for us as fans, it's you know, we we we we've come we've come accustomed to uh to um to success. And as much as we don't want to appear arrogant or entitled or anything, we quite like it, and we like to see it across more more places, and yeah, you know, we want to see competitiveness as well. But it's wonderful to be part of of this Saracens organization, as it were, even in our in our small part, and be you know, and hopefully get the word out there. Um, I was gonna say, perhaps now's the time to finish up. Um, and just like, is there any message that you'd like to get out to the fan base in particular, to the people who listen to the Fez cast?

SPEAKER_05 1:29:34

Yeah, I just like I think when we won that final, it was a much is as much for like I see kind of our fans as shareholders in the club, like everyone's got skin in the game, like everyone feels like has Saracens under their skin, and that's why it works, like that's why it's so important for everyone, like the whole Saracens family. And I I was listening, sorry, slight digression, I was listening to a podcast with the CEO of Disney, and he was going, he was saying, like, the best stories that that Disney creates is when there's an underdog who becomes a hero. And the problem is like Saracens are normally not the underdogs, like, and we have to live with that expectation, and that that's quite hard because you can never be everyone's hero then. Actually, more people would probably like to see us fail because that's just the English psyche, is once someone gets on top, they want to see them come down. But um what I say is in terms of our fans, like we have an unbelievably committed fan base, and if you guys, every single one of you can introduce the club to one more person just on a match day, a new family, anyone, like that kind of like just that word of mouth, because we are we are not very far. I'm gonna sound really commercial now, but we're not very far off being having like scarcity value at Stonex Stadium, like a thousand tickets a game, probably, is what we're targeting. And that opens up huge, you know, getting scarcity scarcity and getting being demand-led for ticketing will put us in an infinitely stronger position as a club. So I like without burdening you all, because I you know genuinely I see you guys as like absolutely integral to everything, and and we we do all this, we want to win and create these memories for all of you guys. But if you can help us spread the word, get people to renew, introduce one new fan, like if you can all help us, then that would be phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:35

Well, absolutely what we try to do here with the Fez Cast, and we'll continue to do that. We we're gonna have our our recharge of our batteries because me and Matt, well, Matt's got to put this all together this afternoon as well. So he does all the production side of things, but yeah, no, we've thoroughly enjoyed it. Uh, and we thoroughly enjoy being able to speak to the likes of yourself and also the players, and you know, getting the opportunity to give Fiodan and Toby Knight a bit of a pep talk on the Feds cast was great before the final. I'm taking my little bit of responsibility. It was, yeah. Well, that that was my one of my golden moments of the season. So, I mean, you know, but yeah, look, we we really do appreciate what you do for us, and hopefully that you know we reciprocate that back to you guys as well. But yeah, thank you for coming on and from everybody at the first cast and obviously the the wider fan base. We thank you for a fantastic season, a fantastic uh experience at Stonex, Twickling, wherever it may be. And uh long may it continue.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:38

Yeah, a whole new season of memories to look forward to. So yeah, thank you guys, and uh don't have too long off. We need need you back on the treadmill soon. But yeah, you can have a little break.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:48

Well, absolutely. I suppose we'll be back very soon. But you know, Lucy, thank you ever so much for your time.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:53

And as I say, thanks for everything you do, and uh yeah, look forward. I'm very happy to chat whenever. So enjoy it.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:59

Absolutely. Well, thank you very much, and we'll speak to you again soon. You soon. Thanks, Lucy.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:23

I'm Sydney Gregson, and I'm a Loose Heads ambassador.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:26

We're a rugby mental health charity working to tackle the stigma. You can find us at Looseheads on all social media channels or at looseheads.co.uk.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:36

The loosehead's mission is to place a mental health lead at every rugby club. Get in touch now to find out more. Take care and enjoy the rest of the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:44

Enjoy the rest of the pod.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:52

This is the fitness.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:56

Well, welcome back to our last bit, and yeah, thank you uh to Lucy Ray there for another illuminating conversation and uh and thank her for her honesty, Matt.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:05

Yeah, it's brilliant, really. I mean, we we sort of said off air a little bit that um in speaking to her afterwards, we we sort of felt like it ended up as a bit of a grilling rather than a friendly chat at one point, but um, you know, it just shows that how keen she is to be open with with us and and fans in general. So, yeah, hopefully everyone's taken plenty away from that.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:22

Yeah, absolutely. I certainly did and really enjoyed that. And yeah, we'll um we'll get back in touch um uh uh next season to chat to her next season, hopefully. But um, yeah, we need to finish off this last Fez cast of the season. Um with a few thanks. Uh I mean first thing to say, Matt, is that the first two seasons we did it on our own and we thought, oh well, let's get some more people on. And we have to say thanks to Sam, Barry, John, and Joe for their absolutely fabulous uh involvement. Well, I don't know about you, but it seemed like almost well, we did go to weekly shows as well. We seem to done even more wear this year.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:58

Yeah, it's been um it's been a busy one, hasn't it? Yeah, the um the challenge of of going to a weekly show um or a daily show and build up to the final. Oh no, yeah, fair play, fair play to you with that one. But yeah, we've uh we've doubled the work, but yeah, it's been brilliant to have um four regular guests on it, and it just means that everyone has different voices to listen to rather than yours and mine, although I'm sure between us we probably still take up most of the uh most of the air time, particularly you.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:22

But I have I have plenty of the say, not all of it uh listenable, but there you go. But yeah, no, so yeah, but thank you to those guys for coming in board and and everything, and also thank you to um all of our guests as well that we've had on during the season from the club, from the various different teams. Oh too, too many to mention. The guys from out, you know, uh uh like Hayden as well, who'd come on, Baz Barrington who's left the club and come back and everything, some legends. It was just absolutely fantastic to speak to all of these people, Matt.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:57

It is, yeah. Um, and it sounds like particularly with uh with Joe coming on board with all of her contacts in the women's game, we've actually got a little bit of a queue forming of uh of people coming on the show. So what I would say is that if anyone out there is listening, if you want to come onto this show, just get in touch with us. And equally, if you want to get involved in what we're doing as well, you know, we've we've had our panel of four extra people. There's no reason why we can't have more than that because more voices make it more interesting, hopefully. So, yeah, if anyone does want to get involved, get in touch with us and all of our social media and things. Um, but yeah, it's been fantastic having a variety of people from from both around the club and and externally as well. Um, lots of different perspectives. Um, one thing actually I want to quickly jump into, I know we're not going to talk about all of our specific guests, but Will Hooley, um having him on the show, one of our best shows, I think, this season. I think that reflected in in the downloads that we had, but he's just announced his retirement. Um, so all the very best of Will. I'm sure he's got plenty of uh plenty of irons in the fire for what he's up to next. But yeah, that's one thing I wanted to get in anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:59

And yeah, and you talk about downloads, and I suppose that's the final thanks because at the end of the day, I mean we could record this and could be speaking into a vacuum and uh into a void, and and and plenty of people would say that perhaps we should do, but uh you know, there are plenty of you who do download every show, and I mean we're what we average isn't 200, 250 downloads a show at the moment, which is for yeah, per per show, yeah. For our little show, so you know, without you guys listening into us and and interacting, and we we really do like your interaction on on Twitter, on Facebook, on Instagram, wherever, you know, it's it's really makes it worthwhile doing, and and and thank you to all of you guys for doing uh for for just tuning in and listening.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:47

Can't say fairer than that, really, can you?

SPEAKER_00 1:37:48

No, absolutely not. Well, look, Matt, time to um set back, open um, pour brandy, light up a cigar, sit on the sun lounger, have a pina collard or two, maybe, and uh keep your eyes on the social medias. I'm sure Matt will be still tweeting from Fezcast SSA when bits and pieces happen. Um, and I will be posting on Facebook and everything. But yeah, you know, have a great summer, everybody, and we'll see you back uh at the start or before the start of the season to discuss more and more stuff about Saracens with more and more guests and hopefully more and more trophies. Matt, thank you very much for your time, and thank you everybody for listening in. And uh, yeah, all the best, everybody. Thanks for listening in and terrah.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:32

This is the Fezcast.