S4 E13: Rude!!

Jez has Duncan for company this week, with the pair discussing injuries, contracts, and the big talking points from a solid victory for Saracens Women over Ealing, and an odd one for Saracens Men over Bristol Bears.

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Title Music (from Season 4): "Herald" by This Winter Machine

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SPEAKER_03 0:00

A ticky tikky tonga, a tiki tiki tonga, a massa massa wanga, a massa massa.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

You're listening to the Fizzcast, produced on behalf of the Semrisson Supporters Association and featuring the independent thoughts, rants, and remembles of Semrissons fans and special guests. If you'd like your opinion to be heard on the show, you can find the Fizz Cast on Facebook or Fizzcast underscore SSLE on Instagram and whatever Twitter is number as these days. Enjoy this week's show.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

It's me, I'm Duncan in the hot seat tonight, um chatting about the weekend's rugby. First things first, um hello from you for a little while, Duncan, how you doing, mate?

SPEAKER_05 1:17

Yeah, really good. Um great to be back on the programme. Uh been away for uh uh a little while back on Wednesday, so it was great both to uh you know be b be back here and back at the Stonex yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Well, absolutely, yeah, you got along to it. I watched it on TNT yesterday. Um we'll discuss that in the third part of the show because we're gonna do a little bit about the women's game um against Dealing, which neither of us saw, but we've sort of like picked up on the highlights and whatever, so we can't go into too much detail about that. And also we need to speak um, we've had a bit of injuries updates as well from uh from the club in the week. So we'll do that part two, a brief talk about those injuries, and then we'll go into depth about the Bristol Bears game. But yeah, first up, Duncan, we've been two games, two wins, two solid wins as well, with uh was it 52-18 against Dealing, the the new team on the bot block on the weekend.

SPEAKER_05 2:15

And by all accounts, they were really, really good. And as you said, we I can't comment about it, but I did watch the Lupra game on the um really excellent video feed that the club put on last uh last Saturday, and it was just superb, you know, it was a great, great performance, and it was a great exhibition of rugby. And I'm looking forward to getting down to watching the the the women again, and I'd really uh urge everybody to do it. For a start, it's cheap, and and and secondly, it's really really high quality rugby. The um we were worried earlier on in the season because we seem to be shedding about three players a week, but the recruitment has just been superb, and now that um the World Cup players are back, they really are on form.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Absolutely, I think. Yeah, we talked about it last week where we mentioned the fact that that you've got some players like Poppy Cleal who've kind of slipped back from England reckoning, maybe through no thought of their overall injury or whatever, that they've got a fire underneath them and want to prove a point. And as you say, there's a few people come back as well. Plus, we made some new signings, some um players from Worcester Warriors, whatever, coming in, you know. And I mean, we're gonna have um Joe said she should be available to do next week's show. So we'll go into more depth about the women that are signed in particular and the performances. But yeah, there's a lot of good signs there. And you know, the likes of Marley Packer, we talked about Marley Packer last week saying that there and Joe had had a chat and said that she was basically knackered. She's not playing like a player who's knackered, she's playing like a player at the very top of her form.

SPEAKER_05 3:51

And um, apologies if I get her name wrong, but uh, Sophie DeGoody just in the women's game is a monster, you know. I mean that in a very nice way. Uh, but you know, it's got a lot in common with the signing of Tom Willis, uh, you know, and we'll come on to talking about him later. But you know, she just powers through in a way that is very difficult for defenses to stop.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Oh, absolutely, and uh and it adds that kicking ability, which all good back rows should have the uh the ability um to uh to kick. I'm not mentioning myself in this uh conversation, of course. But uh yeah, no, uh thoroughly, uh thoroughly good point.

SPEAKER_05 4:27

We won't talk about Andy Christie's kick yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

No, no, I mean every now and then it comes up, but yeah, we'll be talking about kicking uh in that game in a quite a bit of depth, I think, Duncan. Anyway, uh um as I say, we we can't go into too much more detail. But next week we'll really focus on the on the women's game um with Joe in the in the hot seat, as it were. We'll have a quick break now though, and we'll come back and talk about some injuries before we go into the main bones of the uh of the of the chat.

SPEAKER_03 4:57

You're listening to the Fez Cast. Listening to the Fez Cast.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Hi, Alex Osterberry here, director of rugby for Saracens Women. You're listening to the Saracens Fez Cast.

SPEAKER_04 5:07

This is the Fez Cast.

SPEAKER_02 5:13

Well, yeah, um back with the pod, back with Duncan, and I suppose the the big thing is before we talk about the good stuff and the uh performance on the weekends and you know the fifth win on the trot, we need to have a discussion about the fallout from the previous week with some injuries that you know causing concern, in particular Alex Lizowski, who it appears may well be out for a loss of the season now with an anterior cruciate ligament injury, which is a horrible injury to get. I know that through personal experience, albeit when I got it was 30 odd years ago and the and the uh and the uh the the treatment for it was a lot more agricultural than it is now. But yeah, I mean Alex has been in some scintillating form, has stepped up into a captaincy role at the start of the season, and being mentioned again, particularly with the likes of you know Manu Tulagi now not um perhaps being around the England forts anymore, as having a shot at that 13 shirt for England and to this to happen. That's you know, that's terrible bad luck, isn't it, Duncan?

SPEAKER_05 6:23

Uh, really unfortunate. I mean, there's um there's a number of factors about it, quite apart from the fact that it's you know a real shame not to have him. And I certainly hope he's he's back for the back end of the season. It means that we will see Elliot Daly at 13, which of itself is not a bad thing because I'm a big Elliott Daly fan, but I just love to see him playing fullback, fullback or wing. He's good at 13. I guess it means we'll see Oli Hartley a bit more than we might have done. Uh and every every cloud has a silver lining.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Absolutely, and I think that's the thing, isn't it? That um the the beauty of it is, and we've talked about this, the young players coming in that they see an opportunity, and it's happened in the past, you know, Ben Hill got his opportunity as a youngster because you know Jack Berger was off or was perhaps being rested a bit more often, or not Jack Berger, there we uh uh Shark Berger wasn't it there by his time, he's not as old as uh as that, but you know, you you you see young players coming through and you they get an opportunity. And the beauty of Saracens is that regardless of the fact that we've often talked about the fact that they don't get enough rugby at the lower level, most of the lads that come through do shine. And Hartley's been one this year who really has shined when he's appeared on the pitch.

SPEAKER_05 7:37

It's interesting, isn't it? Because beginning of the season, I think Oli Hartley was one of those who who, like the rest of a bunch of young young players, didn't play particularly well, was dropping the ball a lot, but putting them put him alongside those experienced heads, and he really does look very good. Uh, and I think there's you know, there's a lesson there as to how you bring the players through, isn't there?

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Well, absolutely. I think you know, I mean, it's when you talk about it, and it's something that the discussions being made about the England team going forward for the Six Nations, does Steve Borfwick make a complete wholesale change and and just revitalise England, which I think is a mistake. You bring players in, and so that if you've got a a centre who hasn't played a lot of of rugby for him to play inside an experienced outside centre or outside Owen Farrell, that's got to be the way forward. And and the same, you know, if you've got you see Oli Chesham, he's been playing next to Maru Atoji, that's made a huge difference to his game as a second row, and you see it with Hugh Tizar playing next to Maru Atoji. That's up in his game because he's he's almost it's it's that buddy buddy thing, isn't it? About the fact that you know you get latched to an older player, he mentors you, and it the really good older players are great at mentoring. And you can see players like Owen Farrell, for instance, who will be cun coaches. Alex Good undoubtedly will become a coach. Sean Maitland, quite possibly, you know, you could see that young wingers are learning from the old heads like Sean Maitland, and really, you know, that's great because that's what you need. You need that mixture, and I think Saracens have been absolutely brilliant at doing that, Duncan.

SPEAKER_05 9:19

Yeah, that they've got those coach like like uh qualities, haven't they? I mean, I've been down the Stone X on a Monday night when I was just passing on my bicycle, and then you see a lot of kids uh and and you'll see Sean Maitland out there coaching the kids already. Um, so he he I I'm guessing he's got that that in mind. In terms of uh you know changing a team uh overnight, we've seen how well um your favourite three-card trick coach Eddie Jones did with Australia, didn't we? Where he tried his usual joke of saying, Oh, I'm I'm not even gonna try and win this World Cup. This is all about the next World Cup. Got rid of all the experienced heads, and that went well, didn't it? Absolutely, um, you know, I'm hoping we'll see evolution, not revolution.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

Absolutely. Um, the other player talking about the Six Nations, though, uh Ben Earl pulled up last week. The injury doesn't seem as bad as first four, and it looks like he's gonna be back in time for the Six Nations. Although I do have an issue with throwing players straight back into internationals if they haven't played club rugby first or got any rugby, but there's also a a school of thought that looks at it and says, Um, well, yeah, okay, you know, we know what they can do if they're fit, they're fit, and they go back in. So, but yeah, Ben looks like he'll be back in time for that, the start of January, maybe.

SPEAKER_05 10:40

Well, I hope he's treated properly. There were some stories about um, oh, which curry was it? Was it Tom Curry during the week and the way that he was treated by um uh England in the World Cup? Why the hell was he playing the um the third place playoff game against Argentina when he seemed to have a serious injury, uh injury, and probably one that might be have to be managed throughout his whole career. But you know, so having said that, you you'd imagine that Steve Borthwick is experienced enough not to bring him back properly. It's a great shame in the meantime not to see him. I mean, boy, you know, he's all he's one of the best the world's best players at the moment. The World Cup demonstrated that, didn't it? So um, you know, like uh you know, we're we're we're feasting in Maro Toji at the moment, it would be great to see those two playing together because boy, he's so good. Um my um my big hope in terms of uh injury oh overall is that uh you know, provided we don't have too many more, we'll be fine. I'm just really hoping that we have a mainly fit squad at the end of the season when touch would we're in the knockout stages of the uh European competition, because uh in in recent years, you sort of feel yeah, when you come up against the monsters of France and the likes of Leinster, you know, La Rochelle, Toulouse, the rest of them, we struggle this season with the recruitment that we've had, and in particular some big boys like Tom Willis and um uh Gonzalez, I've just got this feeling we'll be competitive. Yeah, provided that we're you know, we if Theo's uh McFarland is is is fit as well, I think we will be.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Yeah, absolutely. I've I've I I definitely agree with you on that one, and uh it does bring us on to another little point, doesn't it? Because uh, I mean, I'm gonna throw this one on you, but something we've been discussing about on the WhatsApp group. Of course, the papers have been out, uh particularly the Daily Fail, um, talking about Maro Atoji and you know, contracts up at the end of the season. Only allowed one marquee player. Saracens are gonna keep Owen as the marquee player. What's Maro Atoji's uh future? Because, and we've seen it now, George North apparently is off to Division II in France because Ospreys can't can't afford his wages for the amount of games he plays for them. You've seen players in Wales, and it's this exodus to the open euro checkbook of the French clubs at the moment, and you know, it's a it's a concern, isn't it? I I think that you might have it might have been you even put a thing out there is that perhaps the club have uh allowed this to go out in the hope that the RFU actually have a think and be proactive and do something to make a hybrid contract or something like that we've seen with perhaps other players, but yeah, it's a concern again, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 13:28

Well, what I said was I I can imagine that the club uh happy's the wrong word, but but okay with it being there. I mean, if if there was one of these books, an idiot's guide to being a sports agent, then uh chat the first paragraph would be when your client's contract is up for renewal, make sure that it's in the papers. Um that's just rule number one for sports agents. And the reason that you do that is to make everybody aware that that it's up, that the contract's up, including those people that you don't know who might be interested. Uh, and secondly, to put pressure on on the club. Now, in this instance, what we've got here, I believe, is the most complicated uh contract renegotiation that any rugby player has ever had. You might have Ronaldo and Messi have been as as complicated, but what we've got is the moving parts in this are uh Saracen's the club, the RFU, Marrow's sponsors, and the French club. Now the rumors are that Leon are offering a million pounds a season. If that's after tax and French contracts are after tax, then it's going to be very, very difficult for the pieces to fall in line and for him to be playing for us next season because it's reported that he's going from 800,000 a season to 400,000 a season for Saracens, knock off the tax, and that's only a bit over 200,000. So you're trying to make up 800,000 after tax, which in the UK is about 1.6 million. Uh and that's very hard to see. But if we're talking about that million being uh pre-taxed versus 400,000 from Saracen's pre-tax, then you could imagine I don't know what England players get, but I think it's again around the order of 400,000. So 200,000 could come from a mixture of the RFU with one of these hybrid contracts. Saracens might say, well, for an extra 200,000, we might be able to afford him, possibly, or even half of it, and maybe one of his sponsors will step up. So there's one, but I think it just goes to show there's just a huge number of moving parts. And for Mauro, it's just a it's probably the biggest crossroads that he faces now in his career because of the stage that he's at.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

Yeah, I mean, I think the the the question is, you know, we've seen Owen Fowl come out this week and say, look, you know, there's another World Cup cycle in me as it stands at the moment, and I want to be part of that World Cup cycle. Does Maro Taji want to be part of that World Cup cycle? Does he want to be part of the next British Lions tour? Those are the the things that really do pull on you that is worth more than money.

SPEAKER_05 16:30

Yeah, but there is a there is a halfway house, isn't there? I mean, you're totally right, and I'm sure Marrow does want to play in another World Cup, but he could go to France for two years.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Well, in which case, then, you know, I mean, it's the old Man City thing, isn't it? Where you see Man City sell players pretty pretty much nine times out of ten included in those um sell sales is a buyback clause, and the only way that you would want Maro Togi to go away in the same way as when we loaned out players when we when we were relegated, you know, they're coming back to us. We get first dibs on them, and you know, in two, three years' time, who's to say that Owen Fowl's going to be your marquee player, although he'll be still around there, then you perhaps you say, Okay, Maro, go and have your uh your two years in France and your your corn, as it were, and then come back to us.

SPEAKER_05 17:23

Well, you'd like to think that was plan B, wouldn't you? That you know, between Marrow and the club, maybe that that they'll sort something out like that. You know, plan A was keep Marrow, you know. But if if if we've got to lose him, then hopefully, hopefully he'll continue to be as good as he has been for almost all of his career, um, and he'd be coming back to us.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Indeed. Well, look, let's break there and we'll come back, and I think we'll probably talk Marrow and Tozzi first up as well, won't we?

SPEAKER_05 17:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:51

You're listening to the FESTCA.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

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SPEAKER_04 18:48

This is the Festcast.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Well, back to the uh third part of the Fez Cast where and joining me is Duncan to talk. Uh let's talk about the Bristol Bears game. And uh, we just talked about Maru Atoji at the end of part two there. Let's talk about Maru Atoji in relation to what's going on the pitch as opposed to all the the rumours and whatever off the pitch. He was immense on Saturday against Bristol Bears.

SPEAKER_05 19:15

Uh fantastic. Uh and he was against Leicester, wasn't he? Yeah. Um, you know, he's he's he's back to after the Leicester game, I I said to my mates, I said, I think that's as good as he's ever played for us. You know, and he was fantastic again yesterday. Um there's there's so much to say about the match yesterday, and one of the points I was gonna raise was uh more as a question mark than anything, is uh, you know, is there an element of tiredness creeping in now to certain players? But the one player you can say is not at all tired is Marrow. Um and whether it's uh consciously or subconsciously, as we were talking about, when he's at such a huge crossroad in his life, when he's got to uh impress so many people, the club, the RFU, any potential French club, I bet that that is uh that is motivating motivating him as well. But in any case, he's just brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

See, I think the the the issue with Maro over the past uh two to three seasons where we've seen a slight drop off in his performances is not so much about Maro Atoji. I think it's an awful lot to do with more internationally than at club level, but you find that at the moment he's got players around him that allow him to do what he does so good. Too many times playing for England in particular, he's carried five or six players of that pack and it's to the detriment of his game, and it would be the detriment to anybody's game when you're packing down next to the likes of Johnny Hill, who I don't rate, never have rated. Um and you're you know, for England you found him doing everything, you know, calling the line outs, taking the line outs, defending the line outs, locking out the scrum, which isn't his his thing. He's not a lock that locks out the scrum, he's a lock who gets out of that scrum and becomes uh an extra flanker almost. And for England, he was carrying players, and that was to the detriment of his game. He's now in a in a position uh with England, I think, where they've found a couple of really good second rows at Leicester to play with me in George Martin and Olicheshire. So he's not having to do all the work, it's the same with the British Lions where he carried Alan Wynne Jones for a British Lions tour, for instance, as well. You know, he's not having to do that for England, which means that he comes back to Saracens and he's refreshed, and he he's not trying to do everything for Saracens, he's just playing his game, which his game when he's on song. There's not a second row, and I include Bra. I include Eminestev. You know, Atoji is the best lock in the world when he is at 100% Marrow.

SPEAKER_05 22:10

First and foremost, he's a disruptor, isn't he? Whether it's in the line out or whether it's in the mall, he just gets in there and disrupts everything, and that's what he's brilliant at. But I take at face value what Marrow himself said. He didn't go into any detail and why should he, but he said he had been carrying an illness for over a year. And when you're competing at the level that Marrow is, you know, the competitor to be the best player in the world, and he has been that at times, then it doesn't take much to be a bit off, does it? And even during the time when you know we're saying, oh, Marrow wasn't very good, he was still very, very good. Yeah, I mean just wasn't as good as Marrow can be.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

I mean they were talking about it being a debilitating illness. I mean, uh, the one that I have experienced of, because it happened to me when I was in my mid to late 20s was glandular fever. And if it's something where he's had glandular fever, that takes takes all sorts of stuffing out of you. So if he's if he's been performing at the level that he's been performing and he's had something like glandular fever, then yeah, fair d's the lad. I mean, that's impressive.

SPEAKER_05 23:18

Or it could even have been long covid. I mean, my brother suffered from that, and you know, it's he's absolutely exhausted, you know, six months later, still, you know, after after doing some relatively small tasks. So, yeah, that that Marrow said that, and I see no reason why it wasn't that.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Yeah, absolutely. Um, who else shone for you against Bears though? Um, before we talk about perhaps someone who didn't have their best game.

SPEAKER_05 23:41

Well, I've I've sort of jotted down before we started because there was so much, so many things to say about yesterday. Um, it was a strange day. Um, the the the crowd in the first half were extremely quiet, which which was surprising. I mean, it was only after about seven minutes, I think it was, just just before Owen scored that that first try, which was a good try, by the way, and we'll talk about Owen. Um and we were camped out on the Bristol line right in front of the North Stands, who were usually magnificent. And it was almost silent. Uh, and it went on that way for for a lot of the first half, which was strange. Just like the team, we were a heck of a lot, you know, the crowd were a heck of a lot better in the second half, and we started to get some some atmosphere. So that was the first thing that was that that was strange. Um then looking, I actually watched back the the 50-minute version on on the Discovery Plus app this afternoon, and there were a lot of really great things that we did. For instance, the two Alex Lewington tries in their very different ways. The first one, a typical Saratens of recent years, Harlem Glow Trotters try, pull going everywhere, and by the way, Owen Farrell coping magnificently with a terrible pass from Nick Tompkins to keep it in play, pass it to Alex Lewington to dot it over. And secondly, a magnificent kick from Owen, which was a bit of a rare event yesterday, to go to Alex Lewington with a with a fantastic um finish, as he usually does. So, you know, in amongst all the good things was Owen Farrell.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Yeah, absolutely. Well, yeah, I mean, indeed. I I'm gonna we'll keep that there because I I absolutely agree with you. But before we talk about Owen, because there is there is a yin and yang there, I think, on Owen's performance. So we need to go in a bit more detail about that. But yeah, the one player you did mention there, um, and I pumped him last week as well, uh, is Alex Lewington, who I think this is a weird one, and I'm I'm starting it here. So if Steve Worthwick listens into the Pezcast, which I very much doubt, but you never know, he might do. Um, I'm pumping Alex Lewington for England honors. I mean, everybody's been talking about Harry Arundel and how he's gone to Racing and you know he's playing Joy Deviva and he's scoring tries left, right, and centre. Uh, but there's obviously been an issue with Harry and it seems Owen, but also the kosher stuff in England because I think perhaps Harry Arundel needs to learn the other side of the game, the application side of the game. Now, Alex Lewington, one, is rapid, no two ways about it. There's a couple of times he had to get back in defense through some kicks through, and he gets there, and he is rapid, as is Tom Parton, who played on the other. They are both seriously, seriously quick. Uh um, got quick motors. But Alex plays with a discipline that suits the way England are set up at the moment, you know, in a in so much as that he will, if needs be, hug that wing, follow kick after kick after kick after kick, and get under kick after kick. I think he won a couple in the air from from box kicks, and that's the way England are playing. So if you're looking for horses of courses, and you're looking for a winger who will do what you want for England, Alex Lewington, with four tries in four games, or five tries in four games now, is it? He's the man you know who they should be looking at.

SPEAKER_05 27:24

He's in a rich vein of form, there's no doubt about that. And I think it's that um key element for a winger is positional awareness. I mean, the best of all time for me was Chris Ashton of always being in the right place at the right time, which is a key skill for uh for a winger. But Alex Lewington has got that at the moment in spades as well.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Yeah, absolutely. That that idea, I mean, it's almost playing a rugby league thing, which is what Chris um did for rugby union right from the moment he joined Saints and then came the Saracens is that appearing on the uh on the in in midfield off the shoulder of the of the first receiver almost, or even off the scrum half or whatever, offered the breakdown, offering that uh speed and power and taking on fours of those positions. Yeah, Alex Lewington's got that in the spades, hasn't he?

SPEAKER_05 28:18

Yeah, because otherwise the wingers can become a you know a bit peripheral and out of out of the game. And I think Tom Parton will improve that way. There were there was one um passage in the first half when he was, as you say, lightning quick and then a fantastic pass inside. I can't remember whether it was to Alex Good or someone else, and it was just brilliant, but it didn't do so much the rest of the game. And I think I think if he can develop that uh that positional awareness as well, he's gonna be a he's a good winger already, he's gonna be a you know a really top class one. The other the other person, oh god, it just impresses me so much every game. Uh, and again, I'll go back to Owen Farrell because the lady Lauren, who sits next to me in the east stand, is very, very funny and and Owen's um biggest fan, I think. So she was absolutely convinced that he had deliberately dropped kicked the ball into a Bristol player's hand so that it would bounce off to Theo McFarland. But look at the end of end of that um that move when uh Tom Willis powers over with about three people hanging off his neck, yeah. Uh, in the way that we used to see Billy doesn't do it so much anymore, but boy, Tom Willis does.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Well, this is the interesting thing about that, isn't it? Because I think um, again, Billy Vinopolo, who you know, we've said on more than one occasion on this podcast, has come back to the World Cup after not really covering himself in too much glory, not getting the opportunities, perhaps. And it would be one question about why did he actually go, really, because he wasn't used, but he's come back and he's he's really developed that other side of his game. And uh the use of him as a scrum after for the line out, his pass is exceptional. I mean, every time he put a pass off of both hands off the tail of the line out where he's stood at the front and he's come through, and it's it's like a rear peel, and you think that he's gonna do that rear peel and come round and take on the the the gap between scrum half and standoff, but he doesn't, he puts a flat pass into the breadbasket every time, and we made so many yards off of that. I mean, that's a great skill, you know. And everybody looks at a number eight and says, you know, and I'll hand up because it's a sort of number eight I was oh man run, sort of thing, you know. That's that's what you do. But Billy's developed that other side too, which he's been allowed to do because he's got players like Andy Christie and Tom Willis and Juan Martin Gonzalez, who are the ones who are taking it up and taking the yards.

SPEAKER_05 30:56

Well, when I say that Billy doesn't score tries with three people hanging off his neck anymore, that's not that's not in any way a criticism because I totally agree with you. Billy's reinvented himself, and the try that he scored yesterday was delightful as well. Really, really clever.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Yeah. Um I mean, to the extent I know I'll say this now, to the extent that you look at Billy Venapone, you actually think that in a different world he could easily have played standoff and he would be a pretty amazing standoff. Imagine that a 19-stone sixteen standoff outside.

SPEAKER_05 31:26

Yeah, it'd be a different one, he wouldn't have been the fastest one of all time, would he?

SPEAKER_02 31:30

But no, but yeah, I mean, an interesting it would have been a an interesting thing, but yeah, he's been great, and yeah, I mean, I think across the board yesterday, you're right, there was an awful lot of good performances. The big issue I had there were two issues defense. Okay, uh we always used to pride ourselves on defense. I think we've gone away from that now, and we've gone more to that. Okay, so right, we're you know, you score four tries, we'll score seven tries, which is basically what happened yesterday. Yeah, which isn't a bad thing, you know. Oh, I think Matt said it, didn't he? He said he said he's never walked away from a game where he's seen 70 points and been a little bit annoyed. But I can understand that. Uh, a lot of that comes from, I think, because what's happening at the breakdown, particularly on our ball, is because we're playing this more expansive game, we're leaving the breakdown a little bit light. So there's been more turnovers than you'd ever ever seen against Saracens this season than I've ever seen for many, many years, Duncan.

SPEAKER_05 32:33

Well, I totally understand, Matt, um, because I felt the same, uh, certainly at half time and a little bit uh after the game. But I just wonder whether we're doing a disservice to Bristol. Um if Owen had kicked his points, it would have been interesting because you know you you wonder whether uh Bristol chins might have gone down a bit because we would have opened up quite a lead if if if Owen had kicked his points, but they didn't give up, they stuck there in defense, and they going forward they look dangerous. They do look really dangerous, and so you know, are we being a little bit well absolutely?

SPEAKER_02 33:15

I think there's three players in particular you need to call out on this as well. Number one, Joe Batley in the second row. He had a big, big game, and he's a big, big lump anyway. Uh, but he had a big, big game. Um, the the lad uh he's a fakatawa in the centre, you know, who's come to Bristol after his health problems, he was a he was an issue for him. And Max Malin's playing fullback had a it max malin's came to the Stone X to say, look what you could have had playing fullback, and and put in a really, really good performance. But by the same definition, I will say that for the majority of the game, it may well have been last-ditch tackles or anything, but when we needed to make a last ditch tackle, we made a last-itch tackle, and you know, we got someone in over the ball. Offly it was Maratoge getting in there and and winning some turnovers. Jamie George got a couple of cracking turnovers as well.

SPEAKER_05 34:16

No, he did. Um, and I just like to thank Jamie George for the song that gets played every time he uh he uh scores a try. It brings a chuckle to my face. At the same time, I'm rather hoping that Billy doesn't score another try all season if he's gonna subject us to that song, but there you go. Um it's um I I think the the other turning point I felt was when um Genj and Sinkler went off. I think Bristol lost a bit then. Yeah. Um you know they you wouldn't say that they were dominant in the mall or dominant in the scrum, but they they it's not surprising that they lose a bit when when uh two props of uh of that quality go off. There were just there was a lot of charge downs as well. We were charged down, there was a lot of grubber kicks that we put through that didn't go right. Yeah. And I think um, you know that that that maybe um you know led to that feeling of not not knowing quite why we didn't enjoy such a close game with so many tries. Maybe that was some of it. Marrow, interviewed after the game, said that after we scored the first two tries, we took our foot off the gas. And I wonder whether that's to do with tiredness as well. I've got no reason to to to to know anything about this, but maybe it was. And the fantastic run by Obitoye, um um, which a lot of people were criticizing because we fell off some tackles and we probably did, but it was the 70th minute, yeah. And you're entitled to be a bit tired at 70 minutes, especially if a few of you have come back from um not having a break over the summer and maybe a you know a game off here here here or there. If someone like Roti had done that run that he did, it wasn't his try, was it? But it was all down to him, really. Yeah, uh, we'd all be purring and saying, Oh, wonderful, you know. And and they did it, so you have to give them credit.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

Yeah, absolutely. I think so. Well, look, let's move on to the to the last part of it and have a more in-depth discussion about Owen Farrell. I mean, if at the at the danger of becoming repetitive, but I mean, we are a Saracens podcast, so we are going to talk about Owen Farrell. Um, Matt, I I I'm gonna present Matt's viewpoints. He had ref link and he wasn't impressed with Owen and his conversations and his attitude towards the referee. I've seen it from a slightly different point of view. I've seen a little bit the the one thing where Owen said, uh, that's the third time at the mall, and Luke Pierce has turned around and gone, thanks, I can count. And Owen's gone, no need to be rude, sort of thing. And I actually have a bit of um sympathy with that part of Owen Farrell's um, you know, the answer he gave there. I think Luke Pierce was a bit too sarcastic. And sometimes Luke, the one criticism I give with him, he sometimes does do the bit of the old Nigel Owen's look at me, look at me, it's not football, pithy quip, and you know, sort of thing. But I know what you're gonna say, Duncan, and in so much as you shouldn't have let it affect the game, should you?

SPEAKER_05 37:28

But it's an easy thing to say, isn't it? I mean, it was interesting. There was quite a lot of um, for the first time ever, I think, of a bit of sympathy for Owen because what Luke Pierce said was was a bit rude. Uh uh Owen lives on the edge, doesn't he? And he and he's had to control it. I think he's probably the person in the world that I would least like to have an argument with. Because he's I couldn't imagine it being an enjoyable um occasion.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Um and he hasn't wanna be covered, he wouldn't want to be caught a telephone box with him and Peter O'Mani, would you? No, you wouldn't.

SPEAKER_05 38:02

But um, yeah, he he he clearly needs to rain himself in. He he he's very, very passionate, and it's very easy for me, who's never been anywhere near the situations that Owen Fowler's been in, to say, well, you know, even if Luke Pierce is it is annoying, it it's about as useful as getting getting annoyed with a traffic warden, isn't it? We all get we all get annoyed with them, but it doesn't do any of us any good. We still get the ticket, and that's you know, that's what it's like being in Owen's situation, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 38:34

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I do think as well that when you listen to Owen, his accent and the way he is, Lancashire and everything, you know, for whatever reason, it rubs public school boys or whatever up the wrong way, I think. And you know, I there has been a bit of beef in the past between Owen and Luke Pierce. Um, whether it's going to be escalate, I don't think it will do. I think the bear of them would have had a chat after the game. And Owen would have probably turned around and said, Yeah, I perhaps pushed the environment a little bit too far. And I'm sure Luke Pierce, when he's reviewing it, will turn around and say, Yeah, I probably could have turned around and said it, said given the answer a little bit uh differently, then they'll learn from that and move on. I think I do think that if that had been Saya Khaleesi saying that to Luke Pierce in the game, or if that had been Anton DuPont saying it again, nobody would have had any issues with it whatsoever. But because it's Owen Farrell, it gets it gets picked up on.

SPEAKER_05 39:34

Well, there is a question mark there. I mean, that's probably the biggest question mark against um Owen Farrell being captain. Uh, I mean, some people have said a captain should always be in the forwards, you know, it's not it's it's not a good idea for a fly half. But when he gets tense, when he gets angry, um, he's not very good at getting the referee on side, and that's half the captain's game, isn't it? Talking of his accent, by the way, and Chris Ashton popping up again, one of the funniest things he ever said was how come a boy who moved to St. Albans when he was 11 has got a thicker Wiccan accent than people who've lived there all their lives, so it's uh which is very true, but can be a sign of um um someone you know extremely strong mentally. Um, John Lennon, when he moved to um New York, and we're both music fans, he kept his scouse accent all his life, whereas other people will get that transatlantic draw. So it's it does show someone who's incredibly mentally strong, it is said.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

Well, I I like to think that I've kept um a lot of my Essex accent despite moving out there from 1978 at the age of six. You talk to my brother, and you would never know that we were brothers from the from our accents because he's proper Oxfordshire rural, but there we go. Um, yeah, I mean that's the thing, isn't it? Let's look at the other sides of Owen's game. And yeah, he had an absolute shocker from the T, didn't he?

SPEAKER_05 41:00

Very odd, wasn't it? It was good to see him have a laugh when um he actually got got one over, the one difficult kick he got over, and all the crowd cheered and he had a good laugh about it. But um, I think doing that must have made him missing all those kicks must have made him grumpy, mustn't it?

SPEAKER_02 41:16

Well, absolutely, but then you look at it, and as I say, look, you know, there is a yin and a yang to Owen's performance on the weekends, and he did do some mighty good stuff, which you've already alluded to. Um, and I mean, yeah, I jokingly say that it was a play that you know you drop a goal that gets charged down straight to Magic Fio's hands, and you know, a try ensues from it. I mean, yeah, I mean, that was one of those things, but that happens. I mean, Bristol were very, very quick at getting out to him, and it was literally it was the same drop goal as he pulled against uh in the World Cup, wasn't it? So they've obviously um done their homework, so good, good credit to Bristol Bears.

SPEAKER_05 41:56

But yeah, he scored a nearly had a couple of um conversions charged down, you know, they were quite close, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

Indeed, yeah, and that uh that's an issue, but yeah, no, he had a couple of assists and he scored a try. And you know, most people in that situation, you turn around and say, Yeah, that's up there for man of the match performance. Um, it was just the kicking off the tee. And did it cost Saracens? End of the season, it might do when it comes down to points difference, perhaps as to who goes where in the um in the league, but uh in the game it didn't really, did it?

SPEAKER_05 42:28

No, luckily. As I as I said earlier, had he kicked all those conversions, he turned down about three or four penalties, didn't he? And then missed the penalties that he he decided to take. Um, on another day, you'd build that pressure and Bristol would start having to play catch-up rugby. Although, in a way, they play catch up rugby the whole game anyway, whether they're winning or losing, but it can it can have a mental effect.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

So uh bear in mind that a couple of those um conversions were from wide out and both hit the post.

SPEAKER_05 43:02

Well, it's a bit the post. Maybe it's a bit like you know, we can we can score seven tries and have a little bit of a grumble. But if if Owen doesn't kick everything, we'll have a bit of a grumble. Yeah, because we're so used to it, you know. He did miss every he did miss nearly everything, so it's not quite the analogy.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

Owen's quite happy for us to have a grumble on the first cast, so every now and then he'll drop a little bit of a sticker in just so we can talk about it. But Duncan, I think we've done that one to death again as well. Uh and uh and we'll move on and say, uh, let's end the show here and say thank you everybody for listening in. We're gonna be back in a week's time. It's December next week, Duncan. I mean, uh we'll have to think about what we want for Christmas. I mean, obviously a new pair of kicking boots are all in furrow, but a bit of it.

SPEAKER_05 43:53

Well, maybe there's some old ones in the penny needs to get out.

SPEAKER_02 43:56

Yeah, indeed. But anyway, thank you for your time, Duncan, and thank you everybody for listening in to the first cast. I will be back next week, and uh uh have a great weekend and uh having some great review over the weekend coming.