S4 E5: Warrior (with Joel Tomkins)

Guest interviewer Duncan Reid makes a debut on the show, and its a big one as he chats to former Sarrie and cross-code star Joel Tomkins about his career path, his love for the club, and his highs and lows both on and off the pitch

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Title Music (from Season 4): "Herald" by This Winter Machine

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:03

You're listening to the Fezcast, produced on behalf of the Saracen Supporters Association and featuring the independent thoughts, rants, and rambles of Saracens fans and special guests. If you'd like your opinion to be heard on the show, you can find the Fezcast on Facebook or Fezcast underscore SSLE on Instagram and whatever Twitter is known as these days. But for now, enjoy this week's show.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

Me and Matt in the hot seat, but being joined by Duncan Reed, big Saracens fan who's done us a pretty good job on uh on rustling up a fantastic interview. We'll talk a little bit more about that in a minute, Duncan. But welcome to the Fizz Cast. Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

It's a pleasure. Pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Absolutely. Well, yeah. We we met up at the um the Saracen Support Association AGM and had a chat there in a pin and yeah, it's good to get you on board there, Duncan. But yeah, um, Matt, how are you doing? You all good?

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Find me the mute button, there you go.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Professional as ever.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah, yeah, all good. Um it's uh it's a mixed day. I uh I've I've watched um watched the Saracens Queens game, which um which we'll talk about later, which definitely a bit of a mixed bag that game. Um but yeah, all good other than that.

SPEAKER_03 1:45

Yeah, well I I've been running around the countryside all day this today, this morning, and and then out for dinner with my mum and dad because it was my wife's birthday and everything. But yeah. Um Duncan, we best have a chat though, about the big interview that you've rustled up for us and brilliant work from you on this. But you've got a dual codes player who played a couple of seasons or so, well, three or four seasons was it, the Saracens. You managed to nail down Joel Tompkins and do an excellent interview with him. Tell us a little bit about how you how you managed to get a hold of Joel.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Well, it all happened a lot quicker than I expected. Because um, if you go online and Google him, I think he's about the only person in the world who, since he retired, is completely invisible on social media, and he's done that deliberately. Um, and it's particularly interesting for me because uh he ended up at a team called the Catalan Dragons in France, who I also go and watch a lot, a rugby league team. Um, so I tried to track him down. I got in touch with a mate of mine in who lives in Warrington, which is where he was born, and he immediately said, Oh, he's a very private person, you know, he won't do it. I said, Yeah, I know, but can you try and find someone who knows him? So he said, I'll have a word with my son, and his son said, Well, he's a very private person, you know, he won't do it. And so I said to him, Yeah, yeah, I know, but can you try and find somebody? He said, Well, I've got a mate who's a mate with his brother, Sam Tomkins, who still plays for the Catalan Dragons. And his mate said, Well, he's a very private person, you know, he won't do it. Uh, and then I got um a message, is his brother Sam wants an email about what it's about. So I just jotted down some of the questions um I thought I'd ask. And then blow me, the next thing I know, I get a phone call from Joel Tompkins um on WhatsApp saying how much he'd love to do it. So how much uh and um as you'll hear from from the interview, I I think there's two things. He I was very surprised about how much he loves he loved his time at Saracens and regrets leaving. And um what he's up to now, I I think is is great. But also he talked about the one thing that I wasn't going to talk about, which was um an incident in his life, which is probably explains why he's such a private person.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

Well, absolutely, yeah. I mean, he I mean for me, I I really rated him. I thought he was an excellent player. Um, you know, one of those rugby league players who perhaps got um it came across and nobody really knew exactly what position to play him in. I think Andy Fowle was another who who had a little bit of uh that issue and then got thrown into England too quick, I think. I mean there was a definitely case after Jason Robinson coming from rugby league to rugby union, there was this kind of feeling that, well, rugby league players can just slot in and and do the business. And uh, it's never that easy to do it and go in the other way as well, I don't think. You know, you look at some great players like Scott Prennell, for instance, who didn't set the world on on fire as much as perhaps people thought it would do. So, yeah, really interesting to hear all of that sort of things. Matt, shall we just go straight into it and um play in Duncan's interview and then we'll come back and discuss what's gone on and then discuss the wider world of rugby afterwards?

SPEAKER_01 5:03

It was a pretty good idea.

SPEAKER_04 5:06

You're listening to the Fez Cast.

SPEAKER_05 5:08

Listening to the Fezcast.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

You're listening to the Fez Cast, which is proudly sponsored by the Saraton Supporters Association. And I'm Alison Davis, one of the SSA committee. For a £10 annual subscription, the SSA provides our members with monthly newsletters, virtual and in-person player events, away match ticket allocations, and we organise pre-match gatherings at away matches. We sponsor men's and women's players, and we support the Saracens Foundation track club on behalf of our members. On top of all that, every year we have a seasonal SSA badge, which is exclusive to members. Where else can you get that much value for a tenor? Join now at membermojo.co.uk forward slash SSA. Or come and see us on match day in the Oasis at the Stonex.

SPEAKER_05 6:03

It's the Fed.

SPEAKER_02 6:06

As one of the very few people I know who follows both rugby union and rugby league and is a supporter of Saracens and the Catalan Dragons in France, it's a great pleasure and honour for me to welcome the person who's probably going to be the only player to ever play for both those teams. So a big hello to Joel Tompkins and welcome to the FezCast.

SPEAKER_06 6:28

Yeah, thanks very much, Duncan. Yeah, thanks for having me on. When you asked me if I'd come on, you know, it's probably not normally my kind of thing to do to do a podcast, uh, but when you explained the the reason why you're doing it and Saracen's means a lot to me, I was more than happy to come on and uh and share my experiences. Oh, that's brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Yeah, everybody I spoke to before said you'd never do it. So uh when you asked me and said uh give me a shout, I was really pleased.

SPEAKER_06 6:51

Yeah, Sarah, I've not probably had much contact with Saracen since I left, and I thought it might be a nice way now. My career's come to an end as a whole, it'd be a nice way to re-engage with some of the Saracen supporters.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Perhaps we could start with just before you joined Saracens, because you were well into a very successful career in rugby league. You're an established first team player at Wigan, grand final winner, I believe. I'm sure finance had a part to do with it because you're a professional sportsman, for goodness sake. So why wouldn't it? But were there other motivations that led you to move out of your comfort zone, if that can ever be a proper description for being a professional rugby player and move to the dark side?

SPEAKER_06 7:32

I mean, probably the financial side of it is probably over-exaggerated. To be totally honest with you, I think it was about 40k a year more I was earning at Saracen to the contract, because I'd I'd literally just signed a five-year deal with Wigan the year before. So I suppose the story goes that we won the grand final in 2010 and we won the challenge cup in 2011. Two really successful seasons for me and for the club as a whole, because we we hadn't won anything since I think I think the last grand final was 98 before that, and the last challenge cup was 2002. It'd been a long, it'd been a long time between any trophies. We had a couple of couple of successful years at Wigan, 2010, 11 with the grand final and the challenge cup. And yeah, that there hadn't been a lot of success for the club leading up to those couple of years, 98 and 2002 being being the last time they won the grand final and the challenge cup, respectively. So it was a great couple of years. I'd just signed a new five-year deal with the club at the start of the 2011 season. Things were going really well. And it was kind of out of the blue. My agent contacted me and said, look, then we've been approached by Saracens and there might be an option for you to go and do something, something else. I think at the time I was 24, so it was kind of at that age, I believe, if you're going to do something of that magnitude, as in switch over codes and things like that, I don't think you want to leave it too late in your career. And I had a really good think about it. And like I said, there wasn't really much reason for me to leave Wigan's successful team. Really enjoyed my time there. I was in the England rugby league setup, but there's just something in me that I always kind of thought I wanted to do something different, whether it be the NRL or or the or rugby union. And I thought, you know what, I'm gonna go for it. And like I say, financially, it was an improved contract, but when you factor in moving to the south of England from the northwest of England, and probably financially wasn't that much better off, to be honest with you. It it genuinely wasn't down to that. It was about me challenging myself.

SPEAKER_05 9:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 9:22

Um, I was really happy that that I'd had a bit of success in rugby league. If we hadn't won the grand final and the challenge cup the two previous years, I there's no way I would have left Wigan. But it kind of felt like the right time if I was going to do something different, that was the time to do it. And I kind of knew if I ever wanted to return to rugby league, there would be an option to go back to to Wigan. That was never kind of discussed at the time, but it I thought that would be an option. But I made the move wholeheartedly, you know, with a with a view to being a rugby union player and seeing how it goes. And that was basically the top and bottom of it. So the financial side of it, it was an improved contract, but I think at the time I I remember it was in the papers, there's a few figures reported which were way off. And for me, it wasn't about the financial, it was about stepping out and doing something a bit differently. I really admire the guys who play a whole career at one club, and you know, in at Wiggin, you've got Sean O'Loughlin and Liam Farrell at the minute who who are top, top players, and they've been one club, one club men, and I do really respect that. But for me, it kind of never had that as an ambition. I wanted to see what else I could do.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Yeah, and you've you've ended up in a few interesting places which we'll come on to. I remember watching probably my favourite rugby player of all time, Jason Robinson. For about a year, he would do his Billy Wiz thing uh and then get isolated. Uh, what for you was the hardest part of the transition from league to union?

SPEAKER_06 10:40

Probably similar. It's kind of understanding the game, being totally honest. I'd never I've probably never watched a full game rugby union before before I got the interest from Saracens. Yeah, I've always had an interest in it. I've always liked rugby union. I've worked, you know, I watched Chris Ashton because we were, you know, we were friends from we're in the same class at high school. So uh me and Chris have been really close friends since we were 11 years old. So since Chris moved over to rugby union, I'd always taken an interest, but I'd never looked at the intricacies of the game, the real details of it. I kind of just watched it for enjoyment. Then when the interest came from Saracen and they said they believed that my skills would transfer well to rugby union, I started looking at the game in more depth. And it's just kind of understanding that because in rugby league, it doesn't matter if you get isolated, if you get tackled, one I mean, it's kind of the aim of the game in rugby league is to find yourself isolated because you're in space. And if you've got a one-on-one, then that's a positive in rugby league, whereas in rugby union it can be a negative. So those kind of things, just under understanding the intricacies of the breakdown, when to compete for the ball, when not to, and when to take space, when not to. Difficult, completely different game. They play when I get activated, I say, you know, we play with the same shape ball and this on the same pitch, but that's about the end of it for me with the similarities, you know, tackling techniques completely different, passing techniques different, carrying the balls different. So just learning the game as a whole was was the challenge for me, which I loved, um, but probably underestimated slightly.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

So when I first started watching League, I remember if there'd be a high ball going to the fullback, your instincts are automatically saying, for for goodness sake, kick it. You've got to run with it, otherwise it's a complete waste of possession. I'm guessing, to my uneducated eye, that there's a heck of a lot less time with your hands on the ball as a rugby union back than a rugby league forward. Uh was that frustrating?

SPEAKER_06 12:34

Um not frustrating. Probably there's probably a period where it was it was kind of difficult to adjust to. Not frustrating. So probably to put some figures to that, I think as a as a back rower in rugby league, I was probably carrying the ball 20 times in a game. 15 to 20 carries, touching the ball, and then maybe within that passing the ball five times. So you might you might be tackled with the ball 15 times and pass the ball five to ten times. And then, yeah, in rugby union, I don't know what the averages are, but I would have said I might touch the ball 10 to 15 times. So I mean, I played a couple of games where I touched the ball once or twice, you know, playing in the middle of winter when it's just we're just kicking and chasing and playing that kind of defensive game and and field position game. To be honest though, for me, I think some players get frustrated by that. I've always been the kind of player, if that's the game plan that we're playing, that it's not it's never been about me. You know, I I'd love to win some personal accolades, but it's not at the top of my priority list. Playing for Saracens, it probably worked out well that that was my mentality because we did play a certain style of rugby sometimes. That's why Saracens have been so successful. It frustrates me when fans want to see, you know, an attractive brand of rugby, but they also want to see success because sometimes you can't do both. So for me, it was always more important to win a game than to have the ball in my hands 15 times. If my if my role in that game was to lead the kick chase and make as many tackles as I could, then I was happy to do that.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Well, it's interesting because you're absolutely right. In your day, we were very much a kick chase defensive team. I don't know whether you got a chance to see Saracens at all last season when we we were just, yeah, it was just champagne rugby. It was rugby, play what you see. And interestingly enough, Mark McCall said it required greater levels of fitness, probably getting more towards the levels of aerobic fitness that you need to play rugby league.

SPEAKER_06 14:27

Yeah, what Saracens have done and what they've proved over the years is they can adapt, whether it's on field, off-field, players coming in, players going out, changes in in staff, right up to from Nigel Ray all the way all the way down. So one thing that Saracens are is resilient, and they've probably Mark McCall and his coaching staff have probably realised that the brand of rugby that was winning them trophies five, six, seven, eight years ago might not win them trophies now, and what they've done is adapt.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

And apparently it was quite player-driven as well, especially Owen Farrell after the loss in the final against Leicester, said, Oh, we've got to do something different to win.

SPEAKER_06 15:03

I mean, Owen's like Owen's probably like another coach, his opinion's probably as valued as anybody else in the club. I'm sure it is, and I'm sure there's other players backing that. You know, I don't think Owen will be coming forward with that on his own, but I think that's the best way if it's player-led, because you've straight away you've got player buy-in. And if smallly, Mark McCall walks into a room and tells all the players he wants to play a certain way, if he doesn't get the buy-in, it's not going to work. But if you've got the buy-in from the players, whichever way your team wants to play, if everybody's on the same page, you've got a good chance of being successful.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

When you moved over, like other strong rugby league forwards, Andy Farrell and Sam Burgess come to mind. There seemed to be a bit of a question as to whether you'd be a flanker or a back. Was that a difficult decision?

SPEAKER_06 15:46

Uh no. I was when I first started negotiating with Saracens about the move in the very early stages, they made it clear that I would be a center in their eyes. In hindsight, you know, I I played 13. In hindsight, I think I may have made a decent 12. But obviously at that time Brad Barrett was in the 12 jersey, and you know, obviously a very highly uh respected player within the team, and and rightly so, you know, I think Brad Brad did a great job. I think he's a top player, so probably wasn't a place for me there. So playing 13, which also I enjoyed, you know, but I would have liked to if I stayed involved in rugby for a bit in rugby union for a bit longer, I would have liked to have a go in the 12 role as well. With the flanker stuff, you know, I don't know whether it's played six, seven, or eight. I think there's potential for you know some players, Sam Burgess, as you say, to come over and Andy Farrell, but I mean, wow, that's a that is a completely different world for a rugby league player to come across and and play in those positions. That was one of the biggest eye-openers for myself when I first joined the club. I remember one of my first sessions. We started off with a, I think it was my first session actually. So it was kind of having a chat with Andy Farrell, who was saying, just jump in and see how you feel. So doing a bit of a pause stuff like you know, 10 on 10, 15 on 15, and it was just touch and pass, really. So that came naturally. And then at the end of the session, we went over doing a little bit of breakdown work, so completely alien to me. So it's first time, so just kind of tackle shield, drop the ball over it, just get your hands on the ball, just going probably 30-40 percent to start with. I was doing it with Will Fraser. He's like, right, well, that we'll go live then. So got over the ball, got a wide base, all that kind of stuff. Will came in and rolled me over the ball, nearly dissipated my hip. Um I was like, gee, what I I just didn't understand the techniques and you know where you need to where you need to position yourself. And for me, you know, I thought, wow, this is this is a completely different element of the game, which I was completely, complete novice to. And I used to watch, you know, the the back row guys over the ball and in the rough. So I mean, that is a yeah, that's a different world. Will Fraser, he's one of the toughest guys I've ever come across, rugby league or rugby union. You know, I think if he hadn't have had the injury run that he'd had, I think he would have had an unbelievable career. He had a great career as it was, but if he didn't have the injury issues, I genuinely think he would have been 50 cap, 100 cap England player. I think he had the potential for that. And also one of the nicest blokes I've ever met as well. So yeah, he's a top player and top guy.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

Well, it's such a shame, isn't it? I mean, him and Duncan Taylor, it's such a shame to see what, you know, they had good careers, as you say, but would have been twice the career, but for injuries, it it really was a shame to see. It must have been a great help to have Andy Farrell there, wasn't it? I mean, he'd done the journey himself uh uh a few years before. He must have been able to give you some good tips.

SPEAKER_06 18:34

Yeah, that was a luxury, and I think one of the first things he said to me was, don't come in and try and change too much. You know, club have brought me in because they liked that my raw abil ability, I suppose. So he liked what I could bring. So he, you know, one of his first tips for me was don't come in and try and be a rugby union player and do what the rest of the rugby union guys are doing. We want a point of difference, so we want you to carry the ball slightly differently, and don't worry about supposed trying to get over the ball or just getting a smash through rooks and stuff like that. So that gave me a bit of confidence, and I think it's important. Well, it was important for me that to have somebody like that who kind of understood where I'd come from, because it'd be difficult if you're coming into a club where there was no rugby league experience in there because they might not quite understand where you've the the skills that you've already obtained. So Andy was great. Owen as well, who's got a an unbelievable knowledge of rugby league. He he gave me a lot of tips, and then there's there was also some other guys, you know. I've got some great friends there, Richard Wigglesworth, Charlie Hodgson, who kind of understand a little bit about league, and you know, they could kind of see what I could bring to rugby union. So I had plenty of support.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Oh, that's really good to know. When you when you look at the people who've successfully moved over from league to union, a huge percentage of them, a big majority, are from Wigan. And you've got yourself Sandy Farrell, Sean Edwards on the coaching side, Chris Ashton you mentioned, Jason Robinson we mentioned before. What was it about Wigan that uh made those league players so much more successful at moving over?

SPEAKER_06 20:02

Yeah, there's a few more as well. I mean, international coach. You've got um you've got Mike Forshaw now in the Wales setup, he's from Wigan, Paul Deacon at Sale, he's from Wigan, yeah. There's uh Paul Stridgeon, you know, the conditioner, he's from Wigan. There's a I think it's just because pure numbers, it it's unless you're from Wigan or you've been to Wigan, it's hard to understand the how big rugby league is in Wigan. And rugby union now to a certain certain extent is growing. But if you look through Super League, there's there won't be a rugby league club in Super League without a handful of players who are from Wigan. I think it's literally just the amount of kids that are playing rugby. It really is a breeding ground and it and it spreads around. So I think now there's a clear pathway for for a young kid in Wigan to make the move over to Rugby Union. I think I think Sale are already looking, you know, down that avenue. I think there's a lot of young kids that are getting 15, 16, and sale are coming in for them now. So I think that's going to be a positive for sale. You know, you've got Mike Forshaw and Paul Deakin having a bit of a rugby league background in coaching seems to be a big tick on the CV and the rugby union world as well now. So yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

I mean, especially on the defensive side of the game, uh everybody at one point seemed to be looking for a rugby league coach to help out. Mike Ford, on a very interesting podcast on the BBC a few weeks ago, said that he thought that Owen Farrell and George Ford went so far, so fast in rugby union because they had a stronger grounding in the basic skills. Do you think he's right? And what does he mean?

SPEAKER_06 21:34

If we take forwards out of the equation, rugby union forwards, and we'll take rugby league forwards out of the equation because I think it's very, very hard to compare forwards because I mean their jobs and roles are completely different. But if we look at rugby league backs compared to rugby union backs, for me, the basic skill level of rugby union players is better than rugby league. Just in what way? What skills? Just basic close skills, passing, kicking. I would say rugby. Rugby union, I think the basic skill level is better in rugby union. So if you've got a line of backs to run up and down the field and just pass the ball across the line, both off both hands, left and right, getting wider, I think the rugby union team would look better than the rugby league team. What I think rugby league players are better at is engaging defenders, timing of the pass, taking it right into the line and playing out the back. But I think that's because you have to do that in rugby league. It's a completely different sport. So without getting too technical in rugby union, you know, there's going to be more time. They're going to be able to catch the ball and you take a couple of steps and really whip a spin pass, you know, 15-20 metres. That's quite rare in rugby league. In rugby league, you're going to be getting the ball with four defenders flying at you. You've got a split second to pick your pass and take it to the line. And so I think basic skill level, as in passing, kicking, I think rugby union are probably in front of rugby league because they do a lot more practice of it. But skill levels, as in taking on defenders, taking the ball to the line, picking the correct pass. I think rugby league players have got the upper hand. But I don't think I think it's probably quite of an old school view that rugby league players are better have have more skill than rugby union. I don't believe that's the case. I think they have better skill, which suits their code. When I first joined Saracens, to be totally honest, I was way behind in the passing off my left hand to my right, because I'd always been a right-hand sided player, so I'd only really ever be doing a long pass from my right to left. If it was a shift, playing left to right, I'd always be kind of down a short side or a little one-handed offload, or maybe a pass five to ten metres. I wasn't ever having to pass a long pass off the left hand. So we'd go into a warm-up drill, and the guys would be standing 15-20 metres apart, just jogging up and down the field with really accurate spin passes, and I was blown away by the skill level. Kicking drills, I mean, I must have been the worst kicker in rugby union history, to be honest. But yeah, kicking basic kicking and passing drills. I was blown away with the skill level at Saracens compared to rugby league. But then if you'd have got the skill level what you got in at Wigan in little three-on-two sided games or four-on-fives, that was definitely a level up in rugby league terms. I suppose it's horses of course his skill levels different in different areas of the game.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

And you do see that with Owen Farrell, don't you? That he's his quick short pass is a level above most other union players.

SPEAKER_06 24:21

Well, I think what Owen's got is he's got the best of both worlds. And I mean Owen stopped playing rugby league, I think, at 12 or 13. But he obviously follows the game closely and he's obviously got those core skills even from that age, and he's carried it through. You can even see with Owen, I suppose, the way he defends and stuff, he's got a rugby league edge to him. I think that's the great thing about Owen. He brings both rugby league and rugby union elements to his game so he can play the long, kind of slow winding up passes, but he can also take it to the line and throw a little short ball with a bit more deception, which is more rugby league style, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

It is.

SPEAKER_06 24:55

So it sounds like you felt very welcome at Saracens. Oh, massively. I mean, I couldn't have picked a better club to play at than Saracen's. Don't get me wrong, it was a culture shock. Some huge differences in in the way we played on the field, but also the way the club was run off the field and and just the general atmosphere around the place, but really, really welcomed me. There wasn't a bad person in the club, you know, there's every single person within the club was was really nice and really welcomed me and my family. And it was a special place, but definitely a culture shock. Was it just a culture shock on the pitch or off the pitch as well? Off the pitch, probably more than on the pitch, to be honest. I've come from a place at Wigum where don't get me wrong, we were a really close-knit group of players. But my last two seasons at Wigan, we had a coach called Michael Maguire who came in from Australia, completely started from the bottom up with the club, so laid new foundations, and it was kind of all built on hard work, sacrifice. We came into work to work, it was quite a serious environment, quite an intense environment. You know, we'd start at 8 a.m. in the morning with a with a meeting, and I'm not saying it wasn't fun, but it wasn't always, you know, smiley environments and things like that. It was it was very much we're in here to work, we've got a job to do, we want to win a grand final, we want to win a challenge cup, and that's what we did. And we had great times off the field as well. But when we were in work, like we were in work, I came to Saracen's and I think it was my first week or second week. You know, we trained and I think we had a meeting, maybe, maybe starting at 10 a.m. and I went up to the team room at 9:30, and Andy Sall was on the stage playing guitar, and a couple of lads were singing a song, and I was like, I thought it was a forfeit, you know. I thought, and it wasn't, it was genuinely learning to play guitar, and a couple of guys who knew how to sing were singing, and I was like, What is going on? You know, so it was a culture shock in that way. I suppose we used to have at Wigam, we used to have like brutal reviews. If we didn't play well, it was very much show a clip, why are you doing this? Don't do it again, which worked for us. Came to Sourisons and they had this kind of philosophy of like, you know, relentless positivity. So even if we lost a game, we'd review more the positive sides of what we did and try and reinforce that than the negatives. Don't get me wrong, like Smaller would pull people to the side one-on-one and kind of go through some of the things that you could have done better, which was great. At Wigan, it was just a different philosophy. So if you did something, you had to stand up in a meeting and be accountable for it. To the point where we used to stand up after every game and rate yourself, you know, out of 10, what you thought you did, what you didn't do well. It's quite a brutal atmosphere, really. But in at Saracens, I came and it was just completely different. And I'm not saying one way's right or one way's wrong. It obviously worked for Wigan at that time, and that's what that group of players needed. And then I came to Saracens and it worked for Saracens because it's a successful club, but just a culture shock in the way things were run. We'd finish a game on a Thursday or a Friday at Saracen and we'd fly over to Verbier for a couple of days skiing and having a beer. And I was like, is this serious? And then we'd play in the following Friday, but it worked because we'd win. Whereas Wigan, we'd finish on a Friday. If we had a turnaround seven days, it'd be like an alcohol ban for two weeks and ice baths the next morning. So just a complete different philosophy and the way of doing things, and I'm sure Saracen's has changed as well since then and adapted as we said they have on the field. I don't think there's a right or a wrong. I loved both philosophies. It's probably just to try and illustrate to you the difference in the way things were run. It was a great time at both, but for completely different reasons.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

So you were picked to play for England. Did you find that that was a step up in skill, intensity, speed, whatever?

SPEAKER_06 28:20

It was definitely a step up. I think I was really well prepared though, because of the standards that Saracen's set in training. It was really high intensity stuff we used to do in Saracen's. It was a step up, I suppose, because the quality of players across the board is is of a really high level, you know, everybody's international standard. But at Saracen's at that time, we had some players probably a higher standard than anybody in the England set up with chop Brits and people like that. So we had a we had a really high level of intensity at training at Saracen. So I think it probably put me in good stead to go into the England camp. It probably came a bit earlier than I thought it would. It was obviously an injury to Manu Tuilangi. I think if Manu hadn't been injured, I wouldn't have been anywhere near playing for the England squad. I think he was head and shoulders above anybody else for that 13 position at that time. But the coaches probably had a choice of a few players, and luckily I got the nod from Stuart Lancaster. He thought I could bring something to the team and I was more than happy to be involved. If I felt comfortable being involved, but it was a nerve-wracking time, no doubt about it, if I'm honest. You know, I'd gone from less than two years prior to that, I'd never even watched a full game of rugby union to be playing at Twickenham in front of 80 odd thousand people against Australia in my debut for England. So it was a big moment for me, and whether I felt fully prepared for it or not, probably not. But I was I was happy, excited, and proud to be there and did the best job I could do.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Yeah, definitely. It must have been part of the reason for moving over and to see it happen must have been very satisfying.

SPEAKER_06 29:45

It was, like I say, in hindsight, probably probably came a little bit too soon for myself. I think if I'd have had another 12 months playing at high level for Saracens, I probably would have felt more prepared, but that's the way that's sport, it's timing, isn't it? You know, when your chance comes up, you've got to take it. I kept my place in the team for the full series. I played all three games, which I was happy about, which not everybody did. Australia, we lost Narrowler to New Zealand and then beat Argentina as well. So successful on the whole, and I've got fond memories of my time in that England camp. Uh I wish I'd been involved, but it wasn't to be. And obviously, ultimately I moved back to rugby league. But yeah, I look back on that with fond memories, and I'm very proud of the fact that I've got caps in both rugby league and rugby union.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

So you should be. And as you say, you you did decide that you were a better league player than a union and moved back initially to Wigan. Was that difficult? Was it difficult to move back?

SPEAKER_06 30:37

Yeah, difficult. The the choice to move back was probably made more for off-the-field reasons. So my wife had just fallen pregnant. I was still very close to a lot of people who were involved at Wigan, Sean Wayne, the head coach, Chris Radlinsky, the CEO. Still very close with them, very close friends. And I had a conversation with them, and they've said they were looking for a back rower to sign on a long-term deal, and I really fitted the bill if I wanted to go back. Now was the time to go back. So this was 2014. So I considered it and I made the choice to go back. Ultimately, I weighed everything up, and I wife was pregnant, moved back close to family and friends. But then also on the field, I thought if I was honest, I thought I had more potential to be a better rugby league player than I had potential to be rugby union player. I'd obviously played for England and stuff, but I kind of thought there's better players than me. It's going to take a lot of work to work my way above those players in the England setup, which I would have been happy to do. But then I looked at the England setup, rugby league, and I thought, are you more of a rugby league player than a rugby union player? And ultimately the answer was yes, and I thought I had more potential in rugby league. So I did it. Being honest with you now, it's probably a decision that I regret to go back to rugby league in hindsight, which is a wonderful thing. I went back to rugby league. There was a lot of expectation, a lot of pressure, and I kind of felt as though there was a black mark against my name because I've been over to Rugby Union. I think there's a lot of animosity between rugby league and rugby union, whether it's players, fans, pundits. I think there's a lot of animosity and there's a rivalry between the two. And I think a lot of the you know the rugby league community saw it as I'd gone over to Rugby Union for a payday, earned a bit of money, come back to rugby league with my tail between my legs. And it wasn't the case. I'd gone from being probably confident, young rugby league player in my first few years at Wigan, playing really well, moved to Taratons again, felt like a rugby league player playing rugby union, but still confident in my ability and felt like he had potential to go to high levels. Came back to Wigan in 2014, kind of lost my identity a bit. Didn't know whether I was you know rugby league player or rugby union player trying to play rugby league or what. And I really struggled over the that four years. It was kind of the rise of social media as well. Twitter really kicked off during that period. And over those four years, I really struggled to be honest. On the field, I struggled with confidence and form. Off the field, struggled with mental health and developed a bit of a relationship with alcohol to try and deal with some of those mental health issues that I was having. Just a bit of identity, self-doubt, all these things putting pressure on myself, probably more pressure on myself than anybody else was putting on me. And it I look back on those four years between 2014 and 2018 when I'd gone back to Wigan after leaving Saracens. I've got loads of regrets. I was a young father with two young kids, and social media was affecting me. Pressures I was putting on myself, identity, all these kinds of things. And like I said, without repeating myself, I developed a relationship with alcohol where I was trying to medicate my own mental health, which was the wrong thing to do. Ultimately ended up leaving Wigan during the 2018 season after a video surfaced online of me drunk in a pub, which was a turning point in my life, but something I'm gonna have to live with for a long time, you know. Well, for the rest of my life, I'm gonna have to live with it. The most embarrassing five-minute video that I'll ever see. And it's something I've got to live with. But you know, I made some changes at that point in my life, did some work with Sporting Chance, the charity, got in contact with Sporting Chance through Colin Bland, who's a brilliant man and become very close to. I made some changes in my life. It wasn't instant, but it took a lot of work, and it probably took me the following four years whilst I was still playing two years at Hullcare and two years at Catalan Dragons before I probably nailed it. I don't know whether I've nailed it yet, but definitely in a much better place, and then retired at the end of 2021 and joined the fire service. So I look back on those four years, you know, going back to your question when I left Saracens, it was a difficult, difficult decision and in hindsight the wrong decision. I wish I'd stayed at Saracens and to see how it all panned out, stuck with it, tried to stay in that England squad, fight for my place. I probably took the option which took me back into my comfort zone. I thought it took me back into my comfort zone at the time. In reality, it probably took me out of my comfort zone, which I'd created at Saracens and took me into something that I thought was a comfort zone, but it wasn't. It's probably the most difficult period of my life. But then, yeah, obviously the incident happened where I left the club in 2018 under a bit of a cloud, and that was the catalyst for some changes within my life. And went on to play. It played a couple of years for Hull KR. I was named captain of that team after 12 months, which was really proud moment for myself because I'd gone from really, really like my lowest point to earning the respects of my teammates at a new club, and I was voted as captain of that club by the players. That was a massive high point for me. And then went over and finished my career in Catalan playing with my brother Sam for two years, which we got to Catalan Dragons first grand final, which was ultimately my last game of professional rugby.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

That's a fascinating story, Joel, and thanks so much for talking about it. Yeah, it must have been great to go from those blows to being the captain of Hull. And then certainly I I can attest for the fact that you had a great couple of last years in France. And it seemed to me from the outside, looking in, that Steve McNamara has created a great culture there. There was a little bit of a suspicion before that some players went to the south of France to spend as much time on the beach. Perhaps that's been a bit too hard, but you you know what I mean. Whereas now he's got a great culture of players who seem like they really want to win, but at the same time have a great team bonding and melding that French players with uh with the English-speaking ones. Were there any similarities that you saw between Steve McNamara and Mark McCall, who also seems to create a great culture?

SPEAKER_06 36:03

Yeah, I think one thing Steve's done really well is recruited the right kind of people. He obviously wants really good players, but probably more importantly than that, he wants people who fit into the culture and he'll be able to adjust to the culture because that is definitely a challenge for him because you are living on a beautiful coastline in the south of France and there is wine on the table with every meal, and you can spend an afternoon sitting on the beach rather than going doing your recovery the day before a game. So take Wigan, for example, if you sign in a player to the northwest of England, they're not going to be sat on the beach drinking red wine, are they? So um, but Steve's got that challenge, but he's recruited the right kind of people and he's done his due diligence to make sure that when those players arrive at the club, they're there for the right reasons, they're not there for a holiday, they're there to work. I think Mike McCall's got a challenge to bring the right people who want to come in. They're not signing for the club because of all the all the things that they get off the field, because they do get treated really, really well. They're coming because they want to win on the field, and then that's a byproduct of that. And I think Smaller's done really well with that. I think the main similarities between Steve Mack and Smaller and all the best coaches that I've had, I'll in I'll include Sean Wayne and Michael Maguire and Tony Smith in this as well, is they're all honest, that they're willing to have those uncomfortable conversations where they'll sit down and tell you you're not playing this week, you're not in the team, and these are the reasons why. They can't be nice conversations to have. And I've had coaches who avoid those conversations. I think Smalley used to find it really uncomfortable, but he still did it because it was his job. And I really, really respect that about him. And same with Steve, you know, I think Sean Wayne probably found it a bit easier to have those conversations. He doesn't mind uncomfortable conversations or uncomfortable silences and things like that. Same with Michael Maguire. But yeah, Smalley and Steve Mack, I think they find it uncomfortable, but they're more than happy to have them, which I admire.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

So picking up that little snippet you dropped there, that you're in the fire service now. That's that that is brilliant. I can imagine that there's a lot of skills that carry over, like bravery, playing to a plan, but at the same time playing what's in front of you, looking after your your mates' backs, all of that stuff. It must have been a really good training to go into the fire service.

SPEAKER_06 38:11

It was, and it was a it was a really quick transition as well. I was actually applying for the fire service for about six months before I finished playing for Catalan Dragons. When I when I signed over in France for Catalan's Academy knew it was going to be in my last two or three years, and I did have the option to stay for another season actually in France. Steve was happy for me to stay on for another year, but we'd been out there for two years during COVID, and we thought it may be the right time. And you know, I had 12 major surgeries throughout my career, and I and I thought it was probably the right time to retire. I applied for the the fire service, and as fate would have it, I played in the grand final in in October 21 on a Saturday night. On the Monday morning, I was I was on the drill yard in Manchester doing the bleep test for the fire service selection test. It was a really, really quick transition. You know, I was on the line with a bleep test with a load of other people with a black eye covered in bruises from the game on Saturday night. But um it's just as well that you you were a rugby player, I should imagine. Yeah, well, I was getting spotted by a few people who'd seen me playing on the telly on the Saturday night. I was getting a few double takes, but it was brilliant for me. I think that period where players retire and then they might have something to go straight into for the first few weeks or a few months or whatever it is. I think that's probably tough. So for me, it was easy because you played a game on the Saturday night. I was into a new, a completely new industry on the Monday morning and humbling as well, because starting at the bottom of the ladder as an apprentice, you do a two-year apprenticeship, which I'm coming to the end of now. It's been brilliant. There's loads of similarities, like you say, you know, working as a team, you know, you've got a common goal, you get that adrenaline rush from from certain jobs that you get. Yeah, it's brilliant. I think it's a great transition for any exports people to try and join the fire service. And I think that's the kind of people that the fire service could be recruiting and they'll add value to the service.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

Yeah, absolutely brilliant thing to do. And on behalf of the people of Manchester, I thank you. So are you doing anything else with with your time at the moment?

SPEAKER_06 40:00

I'm also doing some work for Sporting Chance, the charity that I mentioned earlier. When I was going through some struggles personally, without Sporting Chance, you know, I wouldn't have probably had the tools to take the steps which I took to get to the place where I am today. And at the minute, I'm I'm going into football clubs mainly, Premiership, Championship, League One, League Two, just talking to young players from 16, 18 to 21s, just talking to them about the pressures of sport, social media, the issues that can arise around social media, which I think is huge at the minute for players. I mean, we talk about all sorts of stuff from um addictive behaviour within gaming and things like that. So, what is the biggest danger of social media for a young sportsman? I think there's two sides of it. If you take myself for an example, you know, I was filmed in a pub, drunk, acting like a fool, which is something I've got to live with forever, and I'm not asking for any sympathy about that, and I take full responsibility for my actions. Uh and I've taken many, many steps to change, to turn my life around, really, from that point. I don't drink anymore because of that and things like that. But there's dangers, if you do anything in public, everybody's got a camera phone in the pocket now. So if you do something that you don't want to be made public and somebody films it, it's going to be made public, it's going to be online and it's going to be spread and it's going to be viral. That's one side of it. Secondly, I think players are so accessible now with social media. I've played with players in the last few years of my career. They'll come off a field having played 80 minutes of rugby within 90 seconds, they're scrolling through Twitter looking at comments online. They can be informed, uninformed, educated, uneducated. It could be somebody who has no clue about rugby who's saying they didn't think he played well. And this is affecting players. There's players who value the opinion on Twitter more than they value the opinion of the coaches or of the teammates. And I think it's crazy, you know, where it's going with social media. I think it's dangerous. I think it affects players' mental health. And I just think there's a positive side to social media and a negative side, well, lots of negative sides. For me, I don't use social media. I don't think it's good for my mental health, and I'm happier without it. When I go in talking to players about this kind of stuff with Sporting Chance, you know, I I explain to them that there's a positive way to use it. If you need to use it for your profile to earn money or whatever, we've got to be aware of the dangerous sides of it. And that's basically the message that I'm trying to get across to them. You know, you are very accessible and you've you've also got to protect yourself from these people. Because the real fans of the game, they know that nobody's going to go out there and not give their all. I've never played with a player, genuinely. I don't think I've ever played with a player who hasn't wanted to win and wanted to do the right thing and wanted to play well and given their all. If fans think that players are out there giving up and not trying the hardest, they're wrong. In that moment, if a player can give more, they'll give more. At that level, professional sport, professional rugby, you just get found out too quickly if you weren't giving 100% all the time. So it's the casual fans who are probably trying to make themselves feel better by abusing the players who's on the field every week. It's like the poem The Man in the Arena, you know, they're out there, blood, sweat, and tears, and then you've got a guy sat at home behind his keyboard having pop shots and affecting players mentally.

SPEAKER_02 43:09

And we often hear that confidence is a big thing with players, and it does sound incredibly dangerous. Because as you say, there's always someone on Twitter who'll have a go at you, whoever you are, and uh your confidence knocked by people who are probably really ignorant of the game, uh, does sound very dangerous.

SPEAKER_06 43:24

Well, nowadays it's part of the job. You have to accept that people are going to have opinions which they're completely entitled to, but it doesn't mean that you have to look at them, it doesn't mean that you have to read them, it doesn't mean that they have to affect you. The people's opinions who should matter to you as a player are your coaches, your teammates, your friends, your family, random people who are just giving the comments online. Now, the other side of social media, where you're in public, you're with your family, you're out having a beer, you're doing whatever, and you get filmed and it gets put online, which was my experience. I was in the wrong, I take full responsibility for that. I'll hold my hands up, but I will forever be tired with that brush now, you know. That's That's the way that people will see me and I have to accept that. I don't think it's fair that your personal life is put in the spotlight, but I was in the wrong and that's what happened. But I just think it's important that players are wary of the dangers of social media, both on the comment side and reading too much into comments and things like that, but also on the side of you've got to have your wits about you in public because at any time somebody can whip the camera for now.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

Well, Joel, it's brilliant to hear that you did come back from the depths and it was great to see you play as a player both at Taritans and the Catalan Dragons. I want to say thank you because it's been really, really interesting. And thank you for being so open and honest and interesting. Thank you very much, Duncan. So on behalf of the FedCast, thank you very much. And I hope things continue to go brilliant for you in the fire service with sporting charts with your family and all of that side.

SPEAKER_06 44:47

Thanks, Duncan. I hope Tarrisons continue with a success. You know, I'm a massive Taritons fan. I always have a big part of Taritons in my heart, and I love that place. And I wish the coaches, the staff, the fans, and the players all success in the future.

SPEAKER_02 45:01

Well, I hope we see you at the Snow next one day.

SPEAKER_06 45:03

Definitely. Cheers, Duncan. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_04 45:09

You're listening to the First Cast. Listening to the First Cast.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Hi, Alex Osterbury here, director of rugby for Saracens Women. You're listening to the Saracens First Cast.

SPEAKER_05 45:18

This is the Fezcast.

SPEAKER_03 45:22

Oh, yeah, absolutely brilliant interview there, Duncan with Joel. And you know, something that we always are very um amazed by, um, but also really pleased by is the people who come on to the Fez Cast, bearing in mind that we're just a little, you know, amateur outfit and everything. The honesty and the and the um the truth that these guys tell about their careers. And it's clear Joel's obviously got some regrets. I mean, we all have regrets in life. I mean, it's how you you deal with them afterwards, isn't it, Duncan?

SPEAKER_02 45:58

It is. Um, and I'm not sure that he meant to be so open. I was and I said to him at the end, very great, grateful that he was, but I think it might have been a bit of beginner's luck on my part that you know, after all these years, he's just toying with the idea of raising his head above the parapet and seeing whether it gets blown off because of the you know the incident that he talked about that he's had to live with. Um, but uh I found him delightful. I had a good chat with him afterwards, and he actually lived in the same town that I spend a lot of time in in France, which is San Cyprian, which was an a nice link, and just came, you know, just a genuinely, genuinely nice person.

SPEAKER_03 46:36

Well, I think that's the thing, isn't it, Matt, that we are always at pains to mention the fact that you know these guys go out on a field in front of us, they become heroes to many of us in in ways, they do things that we wish we could have done, um, as you know, in our lives, but they are at the end of the day just human beings, you know, no different of you and I, just so happens that the what they do for work is they're very good at it, and it's stuff that we we hero worship almost, and perhaps that doesn't you know that that puts pressures on players that perhaps we shouldn't be putting on them.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Yeah, I think it's the one the one thing that came across pretty much within the first 30 seconds of his chat with Duncan is that Joel Joel Tompkins is just a genuine, genuinely nice person. Um and yeah, like you say, just a normal human being. I mean, I was sort of looking up his just the numbers of his of his time at Saracens, and it and you know, it's just almost a bit of a footnote in a way, some of some of his career. He had he had one season playing 13 um pretty consistently, and sort of two seasons either side of that. The first one where he was just sort of bedding himself in, and then the second one where he couldn't really get in the team because Marcello Bosch had turned up, and then he disappeared back to rugby league. So on on paper, you sort of look at it and go, well, okay, that didn't really work. But actually, you know, when you get to know someone's story and how they came in and how they enjoyed their time and what they decide they need to do afterwards, it it does make perfect sense. And and yeah, to hear that he's um almost so as he had unfinished business at Saracen's, really, and maybe a little bit of a regret, it it it it was something. So yeah, it was fantastic to hear from him, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

And he did tell me in a little chat afterwards that he he he hung on to the house that he um had in St Albans, and it might be um you know something that they think about moving back there in the future.

SPEAKER_03 48:32

Well, you know, it's one thing you you say, isn't it? And it this all goes back as well, you know, as much as we uh we try to move on from it, but this whole attitude of that players come to Saracens just for money is total rot, isn't it? Because actually, you know, there is so much more around that club that even someone is there for a brief period of time in comparison to others, has an affinity, has a love, has you know, and undoubtedly obviously sits there every week when saracens are playing and looks out for saracen's results, and that's all you can ever want from someone that they've committed and that the club's committed to them for whatever period of time, and that obviously came came through in that little chat.

SPEAKER_02 49:16

I love the fact that he's uh he's now a fireman and turn and turned up on his first day for work with black eyes from the match he'd just finished playing, his very his very last match. And um, you know, he said he said to me again afterwards he was just looking for something to to do some public service, uh, because it was uh it was important to him in his retirement.

SPEAKER_03 49:39

Well, absolutely fantastic stuff. Well, Duncan, thank you ever so much for doing that. And uh, I think it was absolutely brilliant. And you know, any other uh um interviews that you can rustle up, you know, you you carry on there and uh and keep uh keep working on that one. That's great. But we need to have a move on and have a chat about the rugby that's been going on um in um the last week or so since we talked about Eddie Jones and potentially getting his P45. And we are recording this at the moment whilst Australia are um playing um uh uh Portugal with a bonus point at the moment. I think it's uh 29-12 as we're recording at the moment with a little bit longer to go. So, but yeah, um we'll do Saracens Hardly wins first, and Hardly wins actually got a win against us. Uh, you were at the game, were you Matt?

SPEAKER_01 50:27

I wasn't, nope. I was uh I was watching it on the uh this one was actually televised, which was uh which was which was pretty good. Um but yeah, I think when we um when we saw the two teams that came out, I mean, yes, I think the Saracens team from today, it probably won't be too different actually when we get round to the first league match. Um but Harlequin's at full tilt and maybe not missing quite as many players. It it did look as though we might be in for a bit of a hard day. But actually, I think they they front it up fairly well, um, but it was just a little bit scrappy, and the line out was pretty hopeless, to be honest. But um there was plenty to take from it and Duncan, you you you watched it as well, didn't you?

SPEAKER_02 51:07

I did watch it. I mean, there were three big pluses for me. I mean, a Tom Willis is now looking the real deal, isn't he? Yeah. Um Roti was great, really, really good. And Simpson, when he came on, uh added that zip, I thought, that that uh enabled us to come back at the end. But it was frustrating overall. The um the backs. I'm hoping that they've been doing what apparently England did over the summer, which is absolutely knack of them, so that when the uh the season starts, they've got it yeah, it it's a lot easier for them because they seemed a bit leggy and and um and not really working, was it?

SPEAKER_01 51:44

Yeah, it did seem uh a bit disjointed, is probably the right word, maybe a little bit slow. Um yeah, sometimes the platform that they got wasn't wasn't great, but Tom Parton, I think. I'm I'm I was um I was at the Nottingham game and I was actually a little bit unsure what he did right, what he did wrong in that game, and I was probably a little a little bit similar in this game against Queen's. He seemed seemed very very assured in attack, I think. But yeah, there were maybe one or two bits there, not sure. But he'll he'll grow into the game a bit. But I actually thought that um the young backs coming on, you mentioned Gareth Simpson coming on, but um Francis Moore and Tobias Elliott actually label the ones that created a bit of zip when they when they came on in the second half as well. Um but yeah, I think the real real problem is is definitely in uh in the set piece. I mean the line out. I don't think it worked for sort of 20 minutes in the first half and 20 minutes in the second half, and and even the ones that we won were sort of more luck than judgment. So I don't know whether that's coming from from the darts coming in or the calling in the line out, but yeah, definitely something to work on, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 52:47

Chris Ashton thought that we were deliberately playing a kick chase game again, which was a bit which it seemed he was right and and was a little bit frustrating that um those players on the pitch weren't able either, combination of fitness and not knowing each other to play the uh the passing game that we were playing last season.

SPEAKER_03 53:06

Oh, it's an interesting um point you make there. Is has there been a regression? Is that regression horses for courses? Um, or is it actually you know a different development backwards? I don't, you know, we don't know. I haven't seen enough myself personally to make that judgment. What I was gonna say though is you talk about the line out um being an issue. Perhaps it's probably just as well that Samoa are coming home. Um, and we can move on to the World Cup now because Samoa have slightly disappointed me this this year. I thought they were going to do a bit better in the World Cup. Um, but Feo McFarland has been on absolute fire for him. And uh I don't know whether he's gonna get a bit of a holiday coming back, but um, if he does come back, I would be tempted to put him straight in as soon as he's back in the country.

SPEAKER_02 53:58

I think they always give him a few weeks off, don't they? Because they've been uh preparing all over the summer and um not having, although he was injured before, so it might be different for him. Um but he has been great, he really has. There was one past the uh the other night, uh, which was pure basketball. I thought, oh, there's Theo, there's the Theo we know.

SPEAKER_03 54:19

Yeah, I just I mean, well, Matt, I'll tell you that um what two things with with Theo is one, I think he has the potential to be a huge, huge uh world star, and also I think he's got the potential to play number eight at some point in the future as well. And I'd love to see him, love to see him have that try out there at some point. Um, the other interesting thing with Theo, though, was I don't know if you saw that the uh there was a tweet went out where um someone had um said along the lines of, well, you know, Fiona McFarland's really put himself in the shop window, three years um residency somewhere else, presumably England. Uh, you know, will he be playing for Samoa at the next World Cup? At which point he replied on Twitter with no way, bro, and a Samoan flag, which uh is good to see, actually. And I think that's another thing that's going to come out of this Rugby World Cup. We touched on it last time out as well, is that these countries that have taken players not from their own shores, as it were, looking particularly at New Zealand and Australia, and the amount of Fijians and Samoans and Tongans there. But actually, now these teams are are showing one that they're getting more worthwhile games, and and secondly, are being competitive. Less players are going to be wanting to go to Australia or New Zealand to further their career because there's no reason reason to, particularly if you're Fijian.

SPEAKER_01 55:43

Well, one thing that everyone keeps forgetting when they mention about Theo McFarlane and what a wonderful talent he is, is the fact that he's come to rugby relatively late compared to most people, and in a couple of weeks' time he turns 28. So if he does three years' residency somewhere, he's gonna be 31 by that point, and he's he's got four years left left of his career. So, no, that is never ever gonna happen. And yeah, we've got to remember that that this could actually be the peak of Theo McFarland's career. I really hope it isn't. I hope he's got he's got plenty left in him. He should have a good six, seven years at the top with us, that'd be nice, wouldn't it? But yeah, it's it's good to it's good to see him poo-poo that straight away, I think.

SPEAKER_02 56:21

The shot window I was more worried about was the top 14, but I think we extended his contract last season. I certainly hope we did.

SPEAKER_01 56:27

We did, yeah. It's um 2026, I think, was the deal that he that he signed. So yeah, it's it's about as long as a contract is these days, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 56:34

Yeah, well, absolutely, you know, that's that's important. Of course, the important uh thing to talk about this week, though, I think is the tier two nations, and we've seen some cricket scores. Um, unfortunately, the first one being Italy versus New Zealand. Um, you know, I think everybody in the world outside of Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, and Dunedin would have quite happily seen Italy um win that game. And I had a bit of a uh turn and fro with Stuart Barnes on Twitter where I said, you know, I don't think it would be a surprise if Italy won, but I wouldn't be as much of a surprise if they did win for a number of reasons. Like, you know, they're not playing New Zealand first game up, like you know, when they're going to the Six Nations, you think this could be Italy's season, and then suddenly they play England or Ireland or or France away in the first game of the Six Nations, and bang, you know, they're automatically knocked the confidence, so they'd grown into the tournament. I said they'd improved, and I think they have improved, and I didn't think the the Kiwis had the aura of invincibility that he once had. Well, it just goes to prove how wrong I can be. Italy uh played up to the stereotypes of the yellow street down the back of the tank with 67 reverse gears, didn't they? Because they were abysmal against New Zealand. I New Zealand were great, don't get me wrong. I mean, they played some wonderful rugby, but Italy allowed them to, didn't they?

SPEAKER_01 58:06

They seem to have uh the way Italy's games developed, they've been playing the style of rugby that we all want to see that sort of just play it from anywhere style, but it seems to be at the expense of all of the nitty, gritty style of rugby that they used to have. Um, so their change at the top maybe is going to work in their favour. They'll get some of those basics back together a little bit, and yeah, it was a really, really bad, bad day for them. But it is kind of what New Zealand do, isn't it? They've they've had one slip up in this group stage, and yeah, to be honest, I thought there was absolutely no way that there'd be a second one. I maybe didn't expect the score line to be what it was, but yeah, I was expecting them to come out all guns blazing and uh and shut everyone up, really. But a bit of a shame.

SPEAKER_03 58:52

Yeah, and what was very disappointing for me watching Italy was Marco Riccioni looking absolutely perplexed at why he was being pinged almost constantly, which is a bad sign for us going forward, unless our coaching can get hold of him and sort that out, Duncan.

SPEAKER_02 59:11

I missed the game myself. Uh, it sounds like it was a good one to miss. Um, Italy are a funny, a funny mixture. They have come along, haven't they? And in the Six Nations, you know, they can they can be dangerous, but that score was uh yeah, that was one heck of a loss, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 59:27

Yeah, absolutely. And then you talk about other losses coming through. Um obviously Namibia have been uh tonks all over the shot. Um, although I felt in their last game they did actually, you know, compete. Romania got tonked by Scotland, and again, though, I felt Romania actually did compete. It was only when they went down to 13 men towards the end of the second uh first half that an admittedly B strength Scotland team actually went uh ahead and and and took Romania on. Up until that point, I thought Romania had actually uh Healy, the reserve scrub, um standoff. Sorry, you you've got you know, if if Finn Russell gets injured, you would you would not be putting him on. I I didn't think he had a good game at all. Darcy Graham uh electric. I mean, you know, I mean he just had a had a wonderful time, but yeah, Romania did enough for me, and Portugal have done enough this tournament to say that yeah, you know, there is there is competitiveness there, they just need more and more games at this level.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:41

They I believe Portugal have got a lot of players who play in France, as have Georgia, and that's those teams that have got a lot of players playing there are clearly uh doing a lot better than that than those who haven't. Um we need a game that the club is arranging a game in that in that long period of during the six nations, and uh it would be great, it would be great if they could uh organise for us to play Portugal.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:06

Yeah, absolutely. I think that would be the other idea that I put out is that I think um world rugby really needs to look at what football does, and this could be at the detriment of the Six Nations, which you know is a tournament we love. But if you really want to grow the game, Six Nations may not be the way to do it. And I actually think that what they should be doing is looking at um your four-year period, you have a World Cup, the Fusion World Cup, and then two years later you have a European Cup for you know, and England, Scotland, Ireland, France wouldn't necessarily put out their full strength sites, they would potentially put out uh uh a development squad or whatever, but include Spain, include Portugal, include Romania, um, include Georgia, and you know, like you and have a World Cup just for European uh nations, do the same in South America and America, Canada, America, um Chile, Uruguay, Argentina, whatever. Bring those teams through, do the same in the Pacific Islands, do the same in Africa. Why can't they do that and give these teams meaningful rugby, competition rugby with something to play for, a trophy to play for? They might they probably won't win it, it would be the same teams winning it. But instead of it just being once every four years, it's once every two years, and they get exposed to top quality competitive rugby.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:36

Well, the international game, it would definitely work, but thinking of selfishly, do we as Saracen supporters want this disruption to our season every two years?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:45

Well, yeah, I mean that's the thing, but you know, we're looking insularly, and you're quite rightly we would be insular about it. We are Saracen supporters, but if we truly want the game of rugby to grow, you know we said exactly the same when rugby went professional. Is this the right thing to do? You know, when it's the joined the six nations in 2000, is this the right thing to do to extend? You know, the British Lions tours, barbarian games, and not you know, these things change, the game evolves and game changes, and sometimes things have got to go to the go to the wall. And you know, we're looking now at a a domestic game in this country where not only have we lost three teams from the premiership, we're now losing Jersey Reds on the champion from the championship. The club game is not supporting itself, whether that's through negligence by owners or from the stakeholders of the RFU or Premier Rugby, whoever it may be. But you know, as much as we're doing alright, I suppose, but it's a difficult question. If you want rugby to to grow, sometimes you just gotta put loyalties and whatever to one side map.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:56

Yeah, I'd I I do agree with you to to some extent, definitely. I think um I think for me, I'd I'm I'm looking with quite a lot of interest at how the uh the new women's tournament in a couple of weeks goes. Um with um this tiered system of of having effectively a six nations, but with three from the northern hemisphere and um well three from Europe, sorry, and three from uh elsewhere in the top bit and then staggered downwards from there. And and you know, for the for the men's game it would be some kind of formalisation of of your November internationals, for example. Um more games played between nations around the world that actually have a bit of joined up meaning with each other. Um it's all well playing a one-off test against the all blacks because it's a good thing to do, but um making it mean something in some kind of tournament regularly and having a ladder system, having teams up and down. Um it won't work in the men's game in the same way as it's gonna work in the women's game for sure. Um, but it's definitely something that they've got to look at. And and you know, like you say, the teams like Georgia, like Portugal, how on earth are they supposed to get any better than they are now without having a bit of um well, a bit of competition really. I mean you look at I it's completely off the side of it, but you look at Ireland playing cricket, they were good for a long, long time. Someone finally made a decision to go, okay, yep, get involved in in the top level, but by the time they did that, by the time they prepared it, all of those good players have either sodded off and played for England, or it's four years later and they've retired, and they're nowhere near as good as they were by the time they actually get round to introducing them to the top level, and it looks like a failed prospect now. So you've got to take a chance and you've got to open up the opportunity for these cricket scores to happen for your your Namibias and your and your Romanians to get absolutely pasted. But with you know, they said they were doing that with Italy, bringing Italy into the Six Nations. And yes, you've got to give teams a chance, you've got to give them a few years to get. There, but also, if it's not working, you've got to bring the next one in. There has to be some kind of reward or demerit for good and bad performances, or at least for improving. But we sit on our hands, that's the problem.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:14

Well, that is the point, and that's that that's the trouble with with uh English rugby, isn't it? Jersey have gone bust because that it hasn't gone quick enough to show them what the route is in, and internationally as well. They've been talking about putting together this global calendar for ages. The solutions they talked about so far would be good for Japan, Fiji, Uruguay, and those, but the six nations is still set in stone within the structures that they've been talking about, which won't help Romania, Portugal, Spain, etc. And the trouble is what's required is Turkey's to vote for Christmas, and we need maybe a five nations A and B. So you've got five and five with promotion and relegation between the two, and that way it will get really interesting, and you'd also get those um other teams um uh you know getting really good games. But the problem is, even England will have been in in uh danger of relegation in recent years, wouldn't we? And Turkeys won't vote for Christmas.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:16

Absolutely. The Alecadu's want their uh their January um uh booze up, uh, watching a Calcutta Cup, don't they, once every uh two years, and um whilst the Blazers are in charge, then that's you know, that's what will happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:31

Plus, Twickenham supports the whole of rugby, you know, that we do need that income income in English rugby, and it would be a bit of a blow were we to get relegated down to B, but you can't keep you know, they're trying to pour all this uh beer into the one pipe pot and it won't go.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:48

No, absolutely not. Well no, one last thing we just need to have a quick chat about is the uh the other game that happened on the weekend at the Stone X. Um, and England Red Roses um against Canada. Um a win for the uh for the for the Red Roses, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:08

Yeah, it sounded um sounded like a reasonable victory. I mean it tempered with a a fairly soft looking red card, to be honest, to to Canada from what I gather. Um yeah, certainly a good warm-up for the for the tournament in a in a couple of weeks' time. Um the squad's just been announced for that, and there's six Saracens in it, plus a few that have um a few that have just left us. And yeah, it sounded um for those that were there at the Stone Ecks, a good day out for everyone that was actually able to get there with public transport issues and all sorts going on. But yeah, it's nice to have a bit of international rugby at the Stone Ecks, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:42

Oh, absolutely, yeah, and and and and long may I continue because I think you know it's one of those things, isn't it? It's it's like you know, Fair Days when England play France in the Six Nations or they play Scotland, that's gonna be at Twickenham, it has to be at Twickenham, because you will get 80,000 people turn up there to to watch those games, but also you need you know, if you've got a smaller, take the game around the country, not just London. You know, they've been down to Exeter, great down to the southwest. We need to take a game up to Sale or to Newcastle for the northern fans to see this because you know that that's the way you grow the game is by taking it out there. I think I remember Ed Griffith, who used to be our chief executive, was once asked about um the South Africa win in 1995. And he said, What thing did you do bad? What thing did you do good? The bad thing was really interesting. He turned around and said, We never sacked the players, which is an interesting thing because he said they've reached the pinnacle. I mean, that will do do they want to do it all over again? The good thing they did though was they took that World Cup and they took it into the townships and they showed it to black kids who wouldn't normally have played rugby, who were footballers, basketballers, whatever it may be, looked upon rugby as the game of the oppressor almost at that time, bearing in mind politically where it was at. Took the World Cup out there, and now you look at that South African team and you see, you know, the captain, Saa Khaleesi, you know, from a township. It's that's why South Africa are so good at rugby now. It's it's not because it's just because it's a religion there, it's because they've got the entire country, and that's what they need to do with rugby full stop in Europe for the men's game, uh in the country for the women's game, whatever it may be. That's what they need to do is take it to everybody.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:33

And also, it's really important then in this World Cup that England are entertaining. I mean, England versus Japan was on ITV at eight o'clock on a Sunday night, and England were terrible, yeah. And that is not good. Um, that's why it's not just good enough to win, we've got to be entertaining because most of the year, and this is important for Saracens, we struggle to get that visibility, and when it happens, we we need to be good.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:01

Oh, absolutely. Look, let's finish it there. That's been a great chat so far. Uh, and yeah, a fantastic interview with Joel Tompkins. Duncan, thank you for organizing that and doing that. And as I say, any more um that you can um rustle up for us, we'll uh we'll always uh host those chats with um with former players and such like. And uh um yeah, thank you, Duncan, for joining us.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:27

I'd just like to say a big thank you to Joel Tompkins for for trusting us. And a large part of it came from his um love of Saracens, but it but he put a lot of trust in us there and uh like to say thank you to him.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:40

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, if you speak to him again, Duncan, now you've got his phone number, provided he hasn't put a uh restraining order on you or anything like that. Deep pass on our thanks to him and say how much we uh we uh and if he ever wants to come on again, he's more than welcome. But yeah. Um but that's it. Thank you very much for your time tonight, guys, and uh we'll speak to you guys out there uh in a week's time. I want to say thank you for listening in. All the best, and to run off.