Fezcast - The Saracens Supporters Podcast
The Fezcast is the best (only) Saracens fans podcast! Every week we bring you news, reviews, and interviews from around the Saracens Family, covering the men's and women's rugby teams, the Saracens Foundation and our partner clubs. The Fezcast is brought to you by Saracens fans, for Saracens fans - get in touch with us via Twitter, Instagram, YouTube or text the show via the show description in Apple Podcasts and Spotify. [Disclaimer: The Fezcast is brought to you in association with the Saracens Supporters Association and is not an official product of Saracens Ltd. Views are our own.]
Fezcast - The Saracens Supporters Podcast
S3 E39C: Shark Bait (with Kieran Crichard)
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Joining Jez and Barry is Sale Sharks supporter Kieran Crichard from #RugbySaleSharks to give the view from the opposition.
And yes, I know we say it's episode 4 of the week and that it's Thursday...best laid plans and all that!
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[Disclaimer: The Fezcast is brought to you on behalf of the Saracens Supporters Association and is not an official product of Saracens Ltd]
Title Music (from Season 4): "Herald" by This Winter Machine
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SPEAKER_00This is the Fezcast.
SPEAKER_04Well, welcome everybody to uh the fourth episode this week of the Fezcast. Um, although we're recording this Sunday night. Don't worry, we're all out of sequence here at uh at Fez Cast Howards. But for the Thursday show, which is going out today, we thought we'd offer a little bit of balance. So I reached out to the good people at uh rugby sale sharks on Twitter and Kieran Christard has um agreed to join us and have a chat about the final with a bit of a sale perspective. So hello, Kieran, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_01I'm very good, thank you. It's a pleasure to be uh for you for you to ask me to uh come on and uh preview what's obviously a massive game for us and and for you guys as well.
SPEAKER_04Well, absolutely. I mean, yeah, the first thing for me to say, Kieran, is and I don't really want to come over all Leinster fans here with a sense of entitlement and arrogance that you sometimes get from that side of things, but you know, for Saracens, we're kind of used to finals, uh, you know, the last decade or so it's been our regular thing to go to Twickenham and we enjoyed a day out. For sale, it's your first final in 17 years. So I'm guessing excitement's going through the roof um up in the northwest at the moment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that that's pretty safe to say. I mean, the atmosphere this time last week, it was just over an hour ago this time last week that we were celebrating obviously a massive day on the field, and that and that's pretty obvious to say, being a semi-final, but huge off the field as well, because as a club, probably no other premiership club faces the challenges that we do in terms of the competition for for bums on seats from other sports. You've got huge football clubs in the northwest, rugby league's obviously huge in the northwest as well. So the club has a big challenge off the field in terms of getting people in, and this season has been a fantastic season, and obviously we want to cap it off at the expense of you guys with uh with a victory at Twickenham next week.
SPEAKER_04Well, absolutely. I mean, that's that's the thing, isn't it? I mean, we I I suppose going into the game, you know, I don't think it's been too much of a stretch to say that Sarcens are the favorites. You know, we've we're looking at last season against Leicester Tigers reversing that we've been the top of the league, but Sale haven't been far behind us. So although we're favourites, it's not gonna be it's not gonna be an easy game by any stretch of the imagination. And I and you know, we're at huge pains to say that not only us, but the coaches and the players at the uh at Saracens. We know there's gonna be a big challenge on on Saturday from your guys.
SPEAKER_01It's been clear really from week one, to be honest, that that ourselves and you guys have been the top two sides, lit as I said, literally from the get-go, and that hasn't relinquished at all. We had a a bit of a lean or a bit of a poor patch, sort of around February, March time, um, where our form did just dip a little bit, but other than that, it's been I think a level of consistency, and and that, as you guys will know all too well, that that's the difference between being maybe a top six side and a top four side, but also between being third and fourth and first and second is that consistency and being consistently good all the way through the season. So uh yeah, I I think Saracens, I I think you you probably you guys probably are slight favourites, and that's probably down to the fact that you've you've been in these finals a lot over the last decade, whereas this is our first final since 06. But I think guys like George Ford, who were there last year, Johnny Hill, who's a premiership and European Cup winner, Manu, that those guys are gonna play a massive role because for a lot of our players it's going to be a first experience potentially at Twickenham and certainly a first experience of a of a premiership final. So those guys are gonna be massive in terms of leaning into those guys. It was massive going into the semi-final last week, and it is gonna be huge going into the final next weekend.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. We'll be joined by one of my fellow um colleagues here on the face cast, Barry. And um, Barry, uh, welcome to you as well. Uh, I'm gonna say the one thing about Sale and about Saracens, and actually from us as a Saracens point of view, also seeing Wiggy at Leicester, your opponent's last minute semi-final, Kieran. But Barry, I mean, this has got Saracen's DNA all over it this final coming up, hasn't it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. I was reading an article earlier that that suggested this is Saracen's old against Saracen's new, if you like, in in terms of style, um, which I think is probably a little unfair. But uh, yeah, I mean, Alex Anderson's done a brilliant job up at Sale, absolutely brilliant. And uh, I mean, we all hoped he'd kind of um be around with us for a while yet, and perhaps we we all thought he was a success at a smallly, but um, yeah, I mean he he's done a superb job up there and he's he's taken them on to the next level. I mean, they're they're already obviously there and thereabouts, but um, yeah, he he's he's done a great job, and it will be a fascinating game uh because of our two contrasting styles here, and and I think uh that should give us a good final next week.
SPEAKER_04So Kieran, I mean, how how important to sales development has our old mucker L been to you?
SPEAKER_01He's been he's been massive. I mean, I I have the privilege of uh being able to sit in his presses every week, and uh I think you you guys probably will will be able to uh uh see see this and what I'm about to say. I would run for a Brit Rule for that man. He he is he's he's an inspiration. He's he he's just a guy you would get behind. He he gets people. I think I think that's one of his best skills is he understands what people, what makes people tick. He also has a genuine care for people, he has a genuine interest in not just the rugby player, the rugby player, but the person behind the rugby player. He he has an interest when he's speaking to you, whether you're a journalist, a member of public, in who you are, not just kind of the superficial on the face of it. He's he's had a massive role. Obviously, personnel in terms of the playing squad plays a huge role, but he has played a massive role. And I think the biggest shift, say, from a couple of years ago when we lost in the semifinals away to Exeter, I think is a mentality shift. And that's certainly something that Alex has brought from Saracens, that that winning mentality of we are we're here to win and we're gonna do everything it takes to win. It's not, I think for years we fairly or unfairly had a had a bit of an underdog tag, a bit of a kind of plucky sale that kind of overachieving with spend 50-60% of the salary cap and finishing top six was a great achievement for what we were spending. I think now it is a completely different mindset of we are here to win. We're not we're not here to kind of do reasonably well or get to a semifinal. I think it's been clear from an early point of this season, we're here to win the big thing. We're not we're not there to just get to a semifinal or get a home semifinal, we're here to win. And and Alex has certainly played a huge role in that. And I think those years at Saracen's and winning the big trophies and winning numerous times, that's definitely something that he has brought to the club in terms of an attitude, a mentality change that I don't think was perhaps the same three or four years ago.
SPEAKER_04Well, absolutely not. And I mean, you know, from Saracen's point of view and us fans here, I think I'll echo what um Kelly Brown said earlier this week, in so much as if there is a team that we want to come that we would like to have come second behind us, sailor definitely at the top of that list. But you know, uh well, all credit to them. Next thing I was gonna say, I mean, the big build up uh all the way through, a lot of focus is on one position and one one matchup, which is Owen Fowl versus his old mate George Ford. And you alluded to already that George played was playing for Leicester last year, unfortunately got a very early injury, which meant that Freddie Burns could come on and play one of those games that Freddie Burns sometimes plays, but very rarely, and cause us all sorts of problems. But you know, George has you're not seeing a great deal of George this year, have you really? But he's come back and he's come back at the right time, and he's worth. I mean, let's be honest about it. We can say this now, and I very much doubt there'll be any Queens fans listening in anyway. But George Ford, Owen Frau, the two best tens in the country by a country mile, I'm afraid to say. Oh no, I'm not afraid to say. I'm gonna say it, I'm proud to say it. They are the two best tens in the country.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, George's. I mean, you say that obviously he he was injured for a long period as a result of that that injury in the final return in early February. But even before he got on the field, you could see the impact he had had. I mean, there's a lot of talk about he has he's kind of uh effectively another coach. That that is one of the best bits or one of the many attributes he brings, is not only is he a world-cast player, but he is effectively a coach on the field for you. And that's something that Alex Anderson said when we announced his signing 19, 20 months ago. Um, so even before he stepped on the field to be able to play, he he had lots, all his fingerprints were all over our game in terms of changing our attack that has definitely developed this season from where it was a year ago. And then obviously, when you're coming off seven, eight months out, it's gonna take you a few games to get fully back up to speed. And also, you've got to bear in mind he was a Leicester player last season, so he's joining a new club this season. But I think what we've seen in those last three regular season games we had against Bristol, Gloucester, Newcastle, and then the semi-final last week, boy, was he he he's he's a game, he's a game winner, he's a match winner. He was probably the biggest difference between us and Leicester. They were obviously dealt a huge blow in losing Hondre Pollard just before the semi-final, which was a big blow, certainly for them. But George, he was absolutely instrumental in that win. And obviously, the focus will be on George and Owen because the fact that obviously they're very good mates, they've known each other a very, very long time, they've been playing for England together for years. But George was was was very keen to say when we spoke to him after the game, immediately after the game, he said, Oh, I didn't realize it was just me versus Owen playing. He was very keen to say that obviously there's going to be a lot of focus on those two, but the game isn't necessarily the game isn't won by by one player versus one player, but I think we can both agree those two are gonna play. They may not be the only reason why whichever team wins, wins, but they're certainly gonna play a massive role in whichever team wins. If if George has a good game, that gives us a great chance of winning. If Erm Fowler has a great game for Saracens, it gives you guys a good chance of winning.
SPEAKER_04Oh, absolutely. Um, right on that kind of theme, I'm gonna ask Barry first. From a Saracens point of view, Barry, I want you to pick a player outside of uh of not George Ford, obviously, because you know we talked about that. Where where do you see Sales' greatest danger from? And Kieran, I'll get you to think about it while Barry's putting his answer out there. As to outside of Owen Farrell, who do you think, you know, who's that player that you are really? I I think both looking forward to seeing playing against you, but also that you're most fearful of. So, Barry, go on. For you, where where's the key for you?
SPEAKER_03What for for us or for for sale?
SPEAKER_04Which sale player are you going to be looking at thinking is going to potentially cause us the biggest problems?
SPEAKER_03Uh Dupre, if he's if he's fit. I think there's some there's been some talk that he might be injured, I think. I was trying to do some research on that before, but I couldn't actually find an answer. Perhaps that's another um Saracen's way that Al Sanderson's taken with him about keeping very tight-lipped about who's uh who's cropped and who's not. But it will it will be Dupre because um if if he is playing, then that gives Sale the almost the the England blueprint as we've had recently, where you've you've effectively got two playmakers at 10 and 12, and that makes uh a heck of a difference. And if you're then launching um two and angie off the off the back of that as well, then there's all sorts of trouble coming through midfield potentially.
SPEAKER_04What do you know about um uh Dupreza um injury status then, Kieran?
SPEAKER_01Is that a problem or well, obviously we have three Dupreers. So Dan Dupreer at eight had a shoulder injury anyway, and he will miss the final. Uh Rob, who's the one at 13 who's been playing brilliantly at 10 this season, he's fit. And then Jean-Luc, who's been playing second row but is predominantly back row, he's fit as well.
SPEAKER_04Well, uh, there you go. So you your worst fears come true there, then Barry.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_04So, Kieran, I mean, so for you, who are you looking at in that Saracens team outside of Paz at 10 as being the key players?
SPEAKER_01I think probably better, and I think both sides now are without a few really key players in the back row. You guys have obviously been without uh Billy Vunapola, Theo McFarland, Andy Christie, and then obviously in the semi-final, we lost Ben Curry to a to a serious hamstring injury, and then I just mentioned Dan Dupreer there is out as well. So both sides are slightly light or lighter, should I say, uh, in the back row, and and Ben Earl has obviously had a fantastic season with you guys, and I mean you think England are inundated with brilliant sixes and sevens. You think we have the curry brothers, you guys have have Ben Earl, there's Jack Willis, there's uh Tom Pearson at London Irish. I mean, England are are well stopped in in that department, and it's gonna be serious competition for for World Cup spots there. And so, yeah, Ben Earl's been one of the foreign players um in the premiership. And as I said, with both sides losing a few key players in that back row ahead of the final, I mean that that matchup between Ben Earl and and Tom Curry is is a pretty mouthwater in prospect. And I think there's a fairly decent chance that those two could be playing sixth and seven for England in France at the World Cup later this year.
SPEAKER_04Well, absolutely. I mean, I have another theory about Ben Earl, and the thing you will see about Ben Hell with the back row is that he will be off a move into weights, particularly when looking to um to take some moves off of um off of the back uh of Scrums. Uh something he's been doing the last couple of weeks with Billy Villafila out. So that's something to develop there. Well I am pleased to hear, Barry, is they haven't spotted Elliot Daly coming back yet. So I mean, perhaps Elliot's got under the radar somewhat because I mean he's been special as well for us as well, Kieran.
SPEAKER_01I saw that he was back on the bench. Will he start for you guys in the final? So he starts for you guys in the final because he's quite a quite a good player. I know obviously he's a very, very good player, so he'd be good in the starting 15, but he's pretty good in that 23 show. If he's playing for Saracens or England, is a valuable player to have in that position, considering how many positions he can play.
SPEAKER_04Well, I think, yeah, I mean, whether it's too early for him to come in and play from the start, who knows what's in Smally's mind. I think if he does come on, you're either dropping out to Lazowski, who's been exceptional for us this season, or you're dropping one of the wingers, or you're dropping um Alex Good. I mean, it's it's a very nice um conundrum to have as a coach, trying to work out how you fit however many players into one less, you know, it's like the musical chairs sort of thing, isn't it? Percy, I think you're right. I think Elliot, you may well see come off the bench um and be running a tiring defense, and he could be that difference. You know, what if Eddie Jones' favourite buzzwords, a a finisher, shall we say, of the game. But um, I want to pick out a couple of uh players. Um, because you know, there there's lots of little different substories all throughout this um final. We talked about Alex Anderson going back, master versus apprentice almost, isn't it? All of that. But there's two war horses who are going to be running out for the last of a time. We've got Jackson Ray running out, you've got John O running out. Um, two guys who perhaps haven't been given the recognition they should have done. I mean, they're they're well-renowned, well-respected players, but both of them probably didn't get the credit they deserved, didn't get the recognition they deserve, certainly at the international level, but have been great servants of both of our clubs. I mean, John Owen, obviously, what a what a great player he's been for you over the years.
SPEAKER_01He's been he's been immense, definitely goes down as a club legend. He came in six years ago now, so that was in and around a year after Simon Orange and Jeff Mason took over the club as new owners, and it definitely kind of breathed fresh life into the club. It was a new dawn for the club, spending more money, pumping more money into the club in in so many different areas, not just on the field, but in so many different areas. And he was kind of one of those first big name arrivals coming in, and he was definitely influential. I remember when Faf de Klerk came in. John O was the one that kind of encouraged Steve Diamond, who was the DOR at the time, to bring Faf in. And at that time, Faf was out of the international recognition, wasn't really in the picture with South Africa, and a year later was dominating England and went on to become the best nine in the world for a period. So John O has played a massive role at the club on the field, as you said, had didn't really get the recognition I don't think internationally deserved because for a few years, 2018-2019 was one of the best back rowers in the league, and and it felt because he is an EQP, even though he was originally from South Africa, did qualify for England, and so it felt that it was really harsh on him that he didn't get international recognition. But I suppose that's the way of the world, isn't it? Some faces fit better than others, and and and some coaches think better of other players than others. Um his form of the last couple of years is not quite what it once was, and his role is not quite what it once was, and that that's mainly because of the the development of the Curry brothers and the arrival of the Dupreers. But recently, since kind of we've we've found out that John O is retiring, his form has been brilliant of late, and and he's got a big role to play on Saturday with, as I mentioned, no Ben Curry, no Dan Dupreer. He's got a massive role to play on Saturday. So, yeah, an emotional goodbye to him in terms of his final game at the AJ Bell last weekend. I think he did spend a very short period of time at Saracens years and years and years ago, probably a decade ago now. So um it'll be probably extra special for him to be able to play obviously his final game for us in a final, having spent six years at the club and also against a club that he's spent a short period of time at. So he is he's a great and and we'll miss him, as I'm sure you guys will miss or miss Jackson Ray, those guys that are available every week that put their body on the line every single week. Um, and they're the types of guys that fans get behind. And John has been captain for a long time um as well. So the sort of guy that you would get right behind and go into battle with.
SPEAKER_04Well, absolutely. Well, Kieran, thank you ever so much for joining us on the Festcast. I'm sure Barry will back me up here when we say we wish you luck, but not that much luck, you know. Um, we we know that we are going to enjoy the game, and also we'll enjoy the company of sales fans who are going to be coming down at Twickenham. Um, and and then hopefully you'll also enjoy our company as well. Now have a few beers on the day and look forward to a really good game of rugby.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we're we're all looking really looking forward to obviously you guys have been to a few more finals recently than we have, but we are I think we I think it's a real pride in terms of we're representing the Northwest, we're representing northern rugby, and um obviously we're so proud of how great a season we've had, but we want to as as you guys obviously do as well, we want to win that big one and and bring bring that premiership trophy home.
SPEAKER_04Well, absolutely. Well, we did say last year it was only on loan, didn't we, Barry? But I mean we can't we can't as I say we're not Leinster and their fans, excuse me. Um we're just hoping for a great game of rugby and you know look forward to uh to locking horns on Saturday, Kieran.
SPEAKER_01Cheers, guys, thank you very much for having me on.
SPEAKER_04Not a problem at all. Thank you. Thanks.
SPEAKER_01This is the Fezcast.