S4 E19: The Fazcast

This week on the show, we of course can't avoid discussing the most talked about man in rugby, and the will-he-won't-he rumours surrounding our legend and captain Owen Farrell.

We do of course talk about results on the pitch too!

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Title Music (from Season 4): "Herald" by This Winter Machine

Transcript

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SPEAKER_05 0:03

You're listening to the Fez Cast, produced on behalf of the Saracen Supporters Association and featuring the independent thoughts, rants, and rambles of Saracen's fans and special guests. If you'd like your opinion to be heard on the show, you can find the Fezcast on Facebook or Fezcast underscore SSA on Instagram and whatever Twitter is known as these days. But for now, enjoy this week's show.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

I mean, that's going to come up in the show today. It's the hot topic of the moment. But we've got um two people joining me. Matt's joining me and Joe's joining me. And Joe's joining us for the first part because we're going to start off today's show, aren't we, with uh talking about the women's game away at sale. But um, good morning to you guys. How are you all in the uh aftermath of a of a lovely weekend?

SPEAKER_03 1:21

Yeah, morning. Happy New Year, and happy new year to our first class listeners as well. It's uh start of a brand new year. I'm very well, thank you. Bit chilly up in sale yesterday, but we shall discuss that imminently.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Yeah, absolutely. And Matt, you okay? That was almost professional.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

I've just gonna get a word with myself and then I'll uh get back into the normal stuff. Don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_05 1:44

Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm good, mate. I'm um I I've I've not got a polished prepared answer for you, like Joe, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Well, I mean, before we go into the main thing, we have had I mean we're not gonna have any interviews in this week's show, it's just gonna be a basic show because I think Matt, you've probably been jugging the juggling the finances after two monster shows over Christmas in the new year, interviewing Marcello Bosch and Petruse Duke Plessia. I mean, figures for the Bosch I saw come through were good. I mean, presumably the same for Petrus, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:15

I think we're probably gonna end up with with that one being the bigger show of Petrus. Yeah, I've the numbers are all always a bit further down over Christmas, but yeah, having Marcello Bosch on was a was a great gift for all of us, and and adding to that with uh with some post-match stuff with with May and Sydney as well. Good show, but yeah, pet and the show of Petrus, fantastic. Um I actually listened to that myself for the first time two days ago.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

So yeah, I thought I really enjoyed him. It was a wonderful interview. He is a top, top bloke, his uh his power, and uh yeah, and and he's um he's uh he's what's the word I'm looking for? His devotion to the scrum, I think, was admirable, and he's and his uh his enthusiasm for actually you know seeing the scrum for what it was, um, which is something that we'll discuss probably at the end of this show, Matt, when we talk about Tigers uh way uh yesterday. But Joe, over to you. You were up in in sale in the frozen northern west. Take your photographs of the club, which um it was good to see Harry's uh giving you credit for that this morning as well on the social medias. But yeah, 69-3, what a result that is.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

It was a really, really class performance from the girls, actually. Um, Beth Blacklock came in at number 10. Um, played a real perler, really good experience, obviously. Insider with both Leanne starting and Ella coming off the bench as well. So um fantastic performance from from the girls, both in attack and in defence, cutting through um sale who were and are one of the most forbidable um packs in um the uh power um uh Premier 15. So um it's you know there was some crunching tackles there. It started off as a very cold and misty, frosty day up in Sale, but uh the sun came and burnt that away, and uh the girls put on a sparkling performance um with a decent crowd um of spectators, and there were some uh small portion of Sarry's fans that made the trip up there as well, given the uh the clashes with the the men's game. Um, but no, it was uh it was an excellent performance from the girls, and uh I spoke briefly to Alex afterwards, um, and he was really, really impressed um across the board with me, attack and defence.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Well, yeah, it's good to see. I mean, it you look at Sad, and we something that we've been saying throughout this season's Frescast is that you know there are no easy games, and you know, but to score nine 70 points, obviously, you know, they've had to work hard for it, but it's great that Saracen's women seem to be play paying the team's respects and going full tat for 80 minutes and not taking their foot off the accelerator map.

SPEAKER_05 5:08

Well yeah, and um I mean they're not having a fantastic season, but but Harlequins lost to Sale a few weeks ago. Um, like you say, they're not a they're not a team to be to be taken lightly. Um they've lost a few games narrowly, and and yeah, um there's there is the correct amount of rotation going on among the squad all the time. Players are getting a rest here and there. Um there's always sort of three, four, five changes each week. Um I must admit, I I looked at the table and thought, have we really only played six games? The season seems a lot longer than that, but um yeah, we've we've done so we've won, we've played six, won six, six bonus points. Um, and yeah, it's really good to see that we're we're not taking teams lightly. Um fantastic performance all round and done with a mix of English players with a smattering of internationals as it's supposed to be this season, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Well, absolutely, yeah, and uh it's interesting. We will talk about that in a minute, Joe, because obviously Poppy Cleal's uh come out and mentioned uh the the uh the healing uh and Exeter game today and everything, and you know, yeah. But I think the important thing, Joe, is and I'm uh and we'll gloss over the contract controversy, uh controversial moments, but say I think what's most important from what I can gather from the performances I've seen and and everything, it's not individuals shining and doing it's built on a team ethic, it's the team that are doing the performance that's allowing individuals to do individual things, but you know, you have a player come in at 10, another comes in at 10. There seems to be seamless, they're playing to the same hymn book, and it's consistent across the season. And that's once you've got a team that's doing that with a bit of sparkle, it's very difficult to actually deal with that, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 7:04

I absolutely agree, and I think it's a really nice position for Alex and his coaching team to be in because he's just got a squad of players now that he could just pick any number of people, throw them, and you know, mix them across positions as well. We've had um Sophie Bridger can you know play 10, um, play 12. Um, you know, there's a number of players there that can play across the park. Um Sophie the Goody played in in the second row uh flanky yesterday, um can play in the back row, Poppy the same. You know, there's just a plethora of talent across the across the board there. Um, and uh a note probably from one of our other Canadians there, McKinley Hunt came on for her debut, scored a try. Um, so and it was her birthday the day before, so that was quite nice for for McKinley to to celebrate it with a with a birthday try yesterday. Um Paige Farris, obviously player of the match yesterday, hat-tricked some brilliant individual footwork where she was just rampaging down the wing, um, but also a fantastic in defence as well. Both Lottie and uh Paige on the wing, uh Jess at the back as well. It was just a fantastic performance um across the board. And I think this is the first time that actually a team have limited sale to no tries um this season. So, you know, that says something for the team both in attack and defence, and I think you're absolutely right. Um the diversity they've got in the squad and the rotation that they've got means that we're never putting out a weak team. You know, it's it's just fabulous. You know, you've got some really nice good young players coming through as well. Uh we've spoken about Amelia several times, she came on as well for a bit in the second half. Um, it's just fantastic to see the girls and from the way that their their demeanour is, both pre-game, post-game, they're just really enjoying their rugby at the minute, which is again really, really lovely to see. And I don't think it's just about the wins, I think it's the gelling of the team, working with the coaches, um, team management. Gotta give a shout out to Mel as well because she's working uh backside off every week, getting everything organized. So, yeah, it's just uh it's just a really good atmosphere around the team, I think.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Brilliant, excellent. And of course, um, we've now got to look forward to next week, um, to the uh the big game of the season, really. I mean, let's be honest about it. Uh, there's there's a bit of blood off the not particularly nice, nice blood. There, there's a little bit of a of a story, there's a bit of revenge to be had, maybe there's all sorts of things going on, all sorts of little sub-stories. But Exeter Chiefs at Stonex next week. This is the big game because you know, at the end of the day, this is the one that you want to win, and this is the one you win this game, you really do firstly start to see a little bit of a split between Saracens and maybe the rest, and also it puts a line in the sand to say this is where we're at. Uh, and I mean, I'm I've got tickets to the game next week. You're hoping to go, aren't you, Matt?

SPEAKER_05 10:14

Um, yes, hopefully I'll be there.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Yeah, and of course, Joe, you'll be there. So, you know, we're gonna try and hope to do something with the with the guys next week. But yeah, I mean, how do you see that going? I mean, you see more women's rugby than than any of us have, Joe. I mean, is is this a case that Saracens are really going through the gears? And you don't think, you know, I mean, it's tough to say they're unbeatable because that nobody's unbeatable, and Exeter have got a good site, but you know, they're juggling players, whatever it may be. I I mean, how do you see it going next week, Joe?

SPEAKER_03 10:53

Do you know what I think it's gonna be a really competitive game, and for for our listeners that you can get yourself to the Snow Next next week, I would definitely recommend it. It's gonna be some class rugby on show, I think, from from both teams. Exeter have got a strong squad, they've got a strong pack, they've got some speedsters um down the wings there. They've had a couple of wobbles, been beaten by Gosset Hart Pri this year. Um so not undefeatable. Um, we're at home. Encouragement from the crowd is always good because I know that the girls hear it and you know they're spurred on. I was speaking to Marley um at the game yesterday, and the the game against Bristol, the Christmas cracker, all the girls have commented about how fantastic the crowd was um and how great it is, and how much they appreciate the fans coming out and giving them a roar on. So um, for the fans out there that are available to come and watch the game against Exeter Chiefs next week. I highly recommend that the um the trip to the Stonex. Um in terms of the game itself, it's there's gonna be some crunching tackles, there is some history. We were beaten by the Chiefs in the semi-final uh last year down at Sandy Park. Um so you know, there is probably more bite to this game than there has been for the other season games thus far. Um so I'm really looking forward to it. I think the girls will absolutely be up for it, um, and hopefully the crowds will be up for it as as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Indeed, I mean I think probably where the game maybe won or loss in this for both sides is is in defence and discipline. I think that's gonna be a key factor, discipline in particular. I mean, I suppose keeping a lid on Poppy that we've already mentioned in the uh thing, given what happened last season, I think that she's gonna be uh fuel fueled on raw meat and diesel this week, I reckon, Matt.

SPEAKER_05 12:52

Yeah. It's uh like that there's there's a lot of um we've said quite often with the women's team that the one thing that does sometimes not necessarily let us down, but um make it so that we don't trounce teams potentially as much as we should occasionally is that discipline. We do concede a lot of um penalties in defence, which is you know understandable in a way. It's it's how hard we fight him in defence sometimes, and we do concede a lot of penalties and potentially yellow club and then get away without conceding any points, so it is understandable. But yeah, um I totally agree with you. I think it's gonna be a lot of it is gonna be down to just keeping the worst of the emotions in check and letting the uh the positive ones come through on the pitch. Um so fella, I think the matches between Saracens and Chiefs, they do tend to go with the home side, so hopefully that does um that does continue from here, and you never know, Exeter might have to might have to play you know 15 less players than uh than they have in their squad because of uh of how many internationals they've got, so we'll see.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Indeed. Well look, that's something to look forward to, and as I say, you and me, Joe, and maybe Matt will be doing something with the guys next week. So we'll say thank you for your input this morning, Joe. I know you've um you're busy and you've got travelling down the motorways and everything to do today and everything. But uh yeah, I look forward to seeing you next week, Joe.

SPEAKER_03 14:19

Thanks very much, everyone. Get yourself to stone next.

SPEAKER_04 14:25

You're listening to the FedCast. Listening to the Fedcast.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

You're listening to the FedCast, which is proudly sponsored by the Taratone Supporters Association. And I'm Alison Davis, one of the SSA committee. For £10 annual subscription, the SSA provides our members with monthly newsletters, virtual and in-person player events, away match ticket allocations, and we organise prematch gatherings at away matches. We sponsor members and villains players, and we support the Tarasford Foundation Cat Club on behalf of our members. On top of all that, every year we have a seasonal SSA badge, which is exclusive to members. Where else can you get that much value for a tenor? Join now at membermojo.co.uk forward slash SSA. Or come and see us on Match Day in the OA Dis at the Stonex.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Well, after I um a chat about the good side of the weekend, rugby, I suppose we've got to turn our our attentions, Matt, to a bit of negativity in the game. First of all, the section of the Fizz cast that's gonna be known as the Fuzzcast.

SPEAKER_05 15:42

Yeah, I mean it's it's tricky to know what to do here because quite often we we talk about something at length, and then three days later we release the show to the general public, and things have moved on very quickly in that time. So um, yeah, we'll have to see what happens here. But um, yeah, the Owen Farrell story rumbles on. I mean, we we're taking issue over and over again with the amount that people are talking about and the amount that people are criticising him, and the amount of news that's about Owen Farrell, and of course, we're gonna talk about him again, so it's a little bit hypocritical, but uh you know, there there is unfortunately it is the big story.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Um, absolutely. Well, I mean, if anybody's been living under a stone for the last uh 48 hours, well, not 48, well, it'll be a week by the time we sort of go out. The speculation is from Midi Olympique and various other um people that um Owen signed a two-year deal with Racing in in Paris, which you know it this I'm gonna point out Steve Cummings' comment on Facebook the other day when it um broke, and Steve made the very valid point that it was only six weeks ago that Racing had signed Marcus Smith, if you remember. And actually, then if you think about it, it was only three weeks ago that Maru Atoji was off somewhere else, and then you know, the talk of these hybrid contracts coming and everything. There is an element, I think, of that being slightly silly season at the moment in relation to all of these news, and they always come up. And let's be honest about it. Oh, is a big name, he's just announced that he's stepped back from Six Nations England. So if somebody looking at it and going, Well, hang on a second, is he ever gonna play for England again? So, you know, and let's be honest about it. There's not a club in the world if they've got the the checkbook uh available that wouldn't sign Owen Farrell. You know, that's just the nature of it. It would have been the same if it was Dan Carter 10 years ago, or or whoever, you know. I mean, he's a big name in rugby, he's a player that is admired by coaches, by owners, by the people with the checkbooks and everything like that. Of course, his name's gonna get mentioned. Now, the interesting thing is two twofold. Mark McCall has come out and said very, very little, but what he has said, and the comment he did make, was he can completely understand why Owen would want a new experience. And actually, if you're putting Mark McCall's head on it and looking at the future, are you looking at Owen Farrell having a two-year contract going away, as we often said, and coming back into the coaching setup at the end of his career, maybe as a player coach, you know, we know full well that he is Saracen through and through, and if that opportunity is coming, but you know, it it might not, it might not. No man is bigger than the club, that's number one. And you pointed out, I think, on WhatsApp, Matt, didn't you? And you said, you know, as much as we love Owen Farrell, if your Owen Farrell sat there, you know, and someone does come in and say, Well, I'm gonna pay you a million quid, and you can look after your family for two years. And I mean, Johnny Sexton didn't did it, didn't he? Um Finn Russell did it. These players have done it, they've gone off and then they've come back, whatever. But at the moment, Owen Farrell, I think, probably just wants to go somewhere where he's not gonna get the rubbish thrown at him. Although going to France is not necessarily perhaps the best. You know, there's so many conundrums there, isn't there, Matt?

SPEAKER_05 19:16

There is, yeah. I mean, uh, we'll go right the way back. I mean, the French rugby media does tend to have a habit of jumping the gun on a lot of stories, and like you say, you know, everyone's rumoured with a move to France because it's the obvious thing to do for anyone that wants a bit of cash at the moment. Um, there's been stories left, right, and centre, people going all over the place. But there is something about this story that just seems ever so slightly different. Um, and what we'd probably forget sometimes is that the vast majority of players in our squad, when it comes up to their new contract, they've probably got five different offers on the table. We just never hear about them until a decision's made. But because it's Owen Farrell and because it's a big player, there's a lot more snooping around and people finding out bits and pieces. So, yeah, all of our players are going to be touted by other clubs, it's not news.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Um well, you you say that matters as well. I mean, we remember last season it was Jamie George, wasn't it? His contract was up and he was off to Toulon or or Castro or somewhere, wasn't he? You know, Marrow told you again, yeah, you're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_05 20:27

It's yeah, and I I'm I'm I'm totally down the middle with this, really. I I you know there's people saying that they'll eat their left foot if if Owen goes, and there's people that have resigned themselves to leaving already. I think we're probably in this 50-50 situation. He's probably got two different contract offers on the table right now, and Saracens have probably, because this is what they do, gone, this is what we're offering you. You don't owe us any more than you've already given us. It's entirely up to you. And I really hope that that's what's been done for Owen, and he's just sitting there mulling it over, and everyone wanting a statement from the club and this, that, and the other. What is there to say until he makes a decision? If he's got a decision to make, you know, it it's we'll just leave it there. But yeah, who could argue with him having a couple of years just to line his bank account a little bit for his for his half a retirement? I mean, yeah, the amount of stick that he's that he's come under the last years, but you're right, going to France is probably just as just as pressurised. That's probably not the reason for going, but yeah, a different challenge, fair enough. And clearly he's not a hundred percent this season. 90% for Owen Farrell was still bloody good, but you know, I've I've point I've been critical of Owen this year. I've tried to keep it factual rather than like some of the media nonsense, but he has made some mistakes. He made some mistakes against Leicester. Pointing them out isn't insulting him, he's not quite right, and if going away from Couple of years and doing something slightly different with his career is ultimately going to be the best thing for him, then I'll be absolutely gutted for him to leave, but absolutely fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

Well, absolutely and I'm going to come back to that in a minute, Matt. But first, before I say that, the other thing I was going to say is that when we talked about Maru Atoji a few weeks ago, and I think it was Duncan pointed out um on our WhatsApp group as well. There is there an element of Saracens allowing this story to go out there because they're trying to push the hand of somebody. And we were talking about Maruatoshi in hybrid contracts, and that was sort of like then thrown out there, and nothing from the RFU particularly has happened in relation to that. So are they just turning around and saying, Look, you know, you're gonna lose your England captain here if you don't pull your finger out and help us a little bit in the same way as you're gonna help out with Maratose in the same way that you would help out with Marcus Smith at Harlequins, or you know, um Ollie Chesham at um at Tigers, you know, that are is somebody allowing this story to go out there. And the second thing I was gonna point out on that is that it's interesting that the only official Saracen's words I've seen is the pictures of Owen after the game yesterday with a young lad with a little sign that says, Please don't leave Owen. And I mean, you can read all sorts of subliminal messages into that, I think. But it kind of is weird that yeah, they're not making a comment, but it's almost a case of like we're saying and whether they're gonna sit down this week or next week, you know, nothing's gonna get done with Russ in the in the next uh three days, which I say knowing for well that we could be out of date on Wednesday. But I think you know, it's just a case of there's no no news until there's official news.

SPEAKER_05 23:56

Yeah, I don't think there's any any point in in the club sort of addressing random speculation because otherwise they'd be doing it all the time. So yeah, I that there will be something official when there's concrete, either he signed a new deal or he's gone. And yeah, I do I did like the um the the picture that went out because you know we do criticise some of our own media sometimes uh uh Saracens wise because sometimes we don't get the communication that we want, but I think wherever that decision's been made to put out those couple of pictures, and and a brilliant little sign from a dad and his lad there as well. Um I think they've they've been very clever with that because they knew it'd get a positive response and a positive response from a lot of Leicester fans as well after yesterday, as well. Um whether it's got anything to do with anything, it's probably just been done because it's nice, it's got nothing to do with any kind of contract and things, but yeah, it it was was pretty nice to see. But I again I'm gonna I'm gonna look pretty daft because I'm gonna turn around and say, Well, there during the Six Nations, we're not playing any rugby. Um, we've got a lot of players who are probably in contract discussions and things, and I wouldn't be surprised if for a quite number of them they've said, look, let's just focus on it when we're not focusing on matches week in, week out, let's take our time and and and sort things out that way. A little bit different for those that are disappearing off of the Six Nations, but yeah, potentially we'd we'd sort of see more movement on that in a in a month or so. But yeah, for Owen, it probably needs to be done sooner or later because if Owen stays, if Owen goes, it has a big impact on our salaries for the season. Um, obviously, he is the marquee player, so it's not included in that. But if Owen goes, someone else is the marquee player. So it whatever however it works, it would free up a bit of money, and you might find certain players who aren't in discussions at all because unfortunately they're having to wait to find out what happens with Marrow and what happens with Owen first.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Yeah, um but it's an interesting point you make there because the next thing I was gonna say is that if it is true and Owen Farrell is off, you know, he's a player who's 32 years old. There's quite a lot of players at the club of a similar age, and there is in sports teams in history, there's uh so many teams where they've kept players on too long, and the one thing you know, you look at uh Mark McCall as as the director of rugby, he has no sentimentality about him, particularly, he's focused on the team, and if that means you know, we've seen stories, we think it's probably a done deal that Billy Vanapoe is going to be off because we've got back row coming out of our ears, you know, and Billy wasn't included yesterday where he's injured because I know he had a bit of a problem with his arm, but you know, Billy's a long way down the pecking order now that Ben Earl, uh both at England and Saracens, would appear to be the choice that start in eight, you know. You've got um I mean we've got uh a a real issue in the front row, and McUvenaboder, if he hadn't been suspended, would have been playing yesterday. But there's a question of when players are back when a Roni Maui's back fit and everything, you know. And what areas do you want to see the club strengthen next year? Definitely I want to see him strengthen the front row. Jamie George is not necessarily the first name on the team sheet at Hawker anymore. And we saw it yesterday, he's on the sidelines, he's fit. KP started. I feel sorry for KP, and we'll discuss that in the next part. But Fio Dan, they're definitely looking at the future, and I'm just beginning to wonder whether next season you may see quite a few players. Will Alex Good get another season out of it? Sure Maitland, you know, these older players potentially I think you you you you might be seeing almost a knight of the long knives, as it were, and and some players going. And and you know, is that gonna be Mark McCall's next thing? You know, he's a man in his mid-50s now. Is he gonna turn around and say, Right, okay, I've done it once. The challenge I want to do is to do it again and almost start at square one and bring another group of lads through.

SPEAKER_05 28:34

Could do, yeah, could do. Um, I mean, I I actually I had a good discussion with someone on X yesterday about the same sort of thing. I mean, that there's a there's a few people saying, you know, that were already turning around saying, yeah, this squad has been around two or three years too long. We need to we need to cut everyone out. There's so many players that aren't worth their sort in the squad, they're too old, they've been too loyal to players because they've been around too long. And they go, well, hold on a minute. The vast majority of of these players that you're now talking about are the ones that won the league last season. So steady on. Um and you you know the the names that you've mentioned there that are more senior in the in the side, they're probably around, and they've probably been around a little bit longer than we expected them to be because of the injuries that we've had. I mean Makovunapola's a perfect one. We we discussed it last night. He may be a lot further down the peck in order because Saracens pins not pinned their hopes, but we put a lot of faith and a lot of confidence and a lot of work into Ralph Adams Hale and Sam Cream at loose head, both of whom have been pretty much injured full stop for the last two or three years. And they would have been pushing Mako. We've we've brought in players around it, but things would have been different if they weren't injured. Sean Maitland got a very last-minute new contract because we couldn't sign another winger and we had two or three injuries, so we signed another another deal at the age of 35. And you're right, you know, Jamie George, yeah, he probably is starting to slide down the order a bit. And yeah, Owen Farrell, I I looked it up because I was curious, sort of the age demographic within the squad. There's five players older than Owen. We mentioned four of them already. The other one I didn't actually realise is Alex Lewington, who's a couple of days older than Owen Farrell, who looks like a spring chicken to me, but he's also 32. Um, but there is there's not many players actually in their 30s beyond that. And then you get into your Maru tojis, your Nick Tompkins, that sort of, you know, they're 28, 29, and they becoming senior players in the squad. So it doesn't look that bad. You know, we're talking about the aging players in the side. I mean, some of them, like Alec Davis, are potentially they're a bit of a stop gap in in some ways. And we're probably looking at the same kind of thing if Owen disappears off for two years. I'm not 100% sure that we'd immediately go out and bring in a superstar 10. We might have a year or two where you've got Good, Lazowski, and and Manu Vinopolo, um, all reasonably capable at 10, and we're having a couple of years where we balance the squad out a little bit more. And you never know, a certain fella down at Bristol might decide he wants to come back and have a cracker plane tennis as well, just to chuck that out there.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:25

Yeah, who knows?

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Absolutely. Look, um, let's stop it there because I mean, as I say, this could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on like Ariston. So we'll have a quick break there, and then we'll come back and we'll discuss Tigers Away.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Hi, this is Petra Stabilisti, and you are listening to the Fezcast.

SPEAKER_04 31:46

This is the Fezcast.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Well, let's um now talk about in our final part of this show with Matt um Tigers Away in the Premiership. Now on Wednesday night, I was interviewed on Ray Joe Lester's rugby show along with Tom Tharndell um about the game and previewing the game. And at that point, my comment was that I felt it was an important game for Saracens, but it's away at Leicester. I mean, lots of teams go away to Leicester and struggle. You see, Bath the week before with a team of similar strength, maybe a little bit less strong on paper than what Saracens put out, primarily in the backs, but stronger in the forward, should we say, than we were. And they got their pants pulled down a little bit. Now, I know uh Sam on our WhatsApp group immediately after the game turned around and had had was in fits of apodexy, but I don't actually think that the performance was as bad. But I mean, as it I think it was more important for Leicester to win because if Saracens had beaten Leicester at Leicester, they'd have been cut adrift. There's no way they're getting top four. We could afford to lose the game yesterday. Would have preferred a losing bonus point, but we're not cut adrift from that top four, although we're in sixth place. And then to see Saints beating Exeter Chiefs in an amazing game down at uh Sandy Park, but more importantly, uh Bristol beating Sale did us a big favour and gave us that little bit of uh breathing space that perhaps you know, in a season that is, as we've said so many times, condensed and where teams have really stepped up this season as well. It wasn't the if we before we look at the performance, the result wasn't as bad as perhaps we've immediately thought of in in the first first um light of the defeat map.

SPEAKER_05 34:04

No, and I I I agree with what you actually said on our WhatsApp as well, that you know that a lot of the talk was about how Leicester's poor handling sort of meant that the score wasn't as big as it was, and that is absolutely true. But a lot of that poor handling was down to the pressure in defence that we had. Um now you it's very difficult to win a game when only your defence is working. We have done it before, but it it does make it more difficult. But yeah, you can't really deny that we we defended pretty damn well. Um again, the points that we conceded were frustrating errors, really, rather than or or the scrum collapsing, um rather than just being torn apart by a team in attack.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Well, absolutely, absolutely, and also I will say, and I know that you you hate this when I when I criticise referees and everything, but I will say that Luke Pierce, for one of the best referees in the world, does get affected by a vociferous home crowd quite a lot, which is why I think maybe he he got sidelined a little bit during the World Cup.

SPEAKER_05 35:13

Yeah, I mean it's not often that I I turn round and go, yeah, I'm not very happy with the referee performance because I try and stay as as sort of balanced as possible with that. But there was definitely a a short period of the game where I where I was looking at and going, Yeah, he's just uh he's just carried away with the atmosphere. Giving penalties Leicester for turnovers when the bloke's pretty much lying down for a start. Um it it was a bit it was a bit silly, but at the same time we we we were our own worst enemies there with with things like the scrum and that, but I mean the other one I want to go back to what you said at the start as well about just the the league being condensed. I mean, there's a lot of a lot of people turning around and saying, Oh yeah, Saracens, we're not playing like we were the last season or two. And I'm like, Well, no, we're probably not. Um although, like I said last time on the on the show, we won an awful lot of games, snatched it from the jaws of defeat, and uh in a different season, we'd been playing exactly how we were last season and still been fifth or sixth in the table. But every single team in the league at the moment does have an Achilles heel, no one's running away from it, and that is exactly what we want. So I think we do slightly need to kind of reset our expectations of just blowing teams away and winning every match because I I don't really see a team doing it, no team is putting together a run of more than three or four games, um, and that could continue to the end of the season.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Well, absolutely, and if you look at it, if you look at the league um where we're looking at it now, not knowing what happens Bath Gloucester, but you would have to assume that Bath will get a bonus point win there because Gloucester are absolute pants, but then it's a southwest derby, and you never never know what could happen. And as you say, any team on their day, and even Newcastle have come close, you know, and with a little bit of luck going their way, might well have um, you know, uh won a couple more games. It's only really the two games against Saracens at Newcastle have really failed to impress particularly much. Um, you know, and we are only um a point off a sale in fourth place, playing the same amount of games. The the question comes that normally, you know, at the end of the season, what you really want, and I think it's more important this season than any season, is that home semi-final. Whether Saracens could get a home semi-final from this position is is is more debatable than getting a playoff position. So I don't think anything's too too bad there. Going back to the game, you're right though, Matt. Let's be honest about it. We gave them one try by running a move that wasn't on because of the way that the ball had come out of the scrum. The amount of times I found myself uh agreeing with Austin Heedy yesterday was was embarrassing, really, to be perfectly honest with you. But I mean, fair deeds to Austin. Actually, I do quite like Osted as a he he as he's matured, he's he has a neutrality about him or an attempt to be neutral, uh, which is very difficult when he's commenting on the team that he played all his career for. But so yeah, Owen Farrell gave them gave them a try. Should never have, you know, when he spent most of the game putting lovely little clever kicks in. The one time he doesn't, uh Dan Kelly picks his pocket. Second try for of them of Tigers tries came after Andre Pollard Pollard and handled on the floor, then got uh a further penalty when Montosh uh goes over the top off of his feet and everything like that. They get a try from that pretty pretty soon afterwards, and then the third one is when Barritosi pretty unlucky, I think, to get a yellow card there. Yeah, a penalty, but he'd made effort to get back, as both Delalio and Healy had said. I mean, what on earth is he meant to do in that situation? It wasn't as if he stopped to try or anything like that, it was just that was given the penalty, and the crowd have paid for it. And so, three tries for Tigers, they didn't earn their tries. Whereas the one try that Saracens did score was a beautiful try off of first phase ball. One bam, thank you, ma'am, in the corner. Absolutely fantastic. Best bit of rugby on the afternoon.

SPEAKER_05 39:38

It was. Um, I think the issue really is that it was the only decent bit of rugby in attack that we uh we had after. We we didn't really, although we had you know we had a bit of territory and we had the ball, that was the only time that we genuinely tested the try-line um in that game. So I think that's the the big issue, really, other than the scrum. Um but yeah, I you know I it was a game between two sides that we thought might have been in a bit of a false position at the start of the season. We obviously both both Saracens and Leicester started off very, very slowly, um, having lost plenty of internationals to the World Cup. Um we did have a little patch. Leicester are still sort of trying to recover from that, um, and it did look like a a game between two teams in the middle of the table. Um, yeah. On another day we might have got something out of that, but it just it didn't really seem to be going right. But yeah, we were we were one intercept try or one referee decision away from at least a point, so it could be worse, couldn't it?

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Well, absolutely, I think I think that's the the the key thing there. Um I will say that everybody's blowing smoke up tigers backsides at the moment, they're not that good. I really, I really have not, although they've gone on a on a run, uh they've reverted very much to type and their act their accuracy was nowhere. And you're right, as we said right at the very start of this, I think a lot of the accuracy was down to the fact that Maro Atosia, particularly and Fio McFarlane threw himself about uh uh a bit, what Martin Gonzalez does, we know he does, and obviously Ben Earl as well. I think a lot of their inaccuracy came from the fact that we in defense were Wolfpack, and I know Sam's going on about how toothless and deflated Saracens were. I don't think he's being fair, fair on them on that one, in defense at least. Attack, yeah, okay. But there you go. I I do want to pick out a couple of players though, who I think are deserving of um some words. First off, Gareth Simpson at Scrum up. I thought he had a good game. I really did. I think his kicking was accurate, his passing was accurate. He, you know, the the times that when we did get ball going forward, it's because he got to the rut quick and he got that ball out quick and he knew what was on and what he wanted to do with it. So that's number one. I was quite happy with him. Um the other side of Scrum, Tom Whitley did his normal I'm gonna up myself because I'm playing against Sarisons and you know, and I know what's going on here. Um, the other lad I want to um pull out though, uh for special mention is Sam Cream because the scrum's been a problem for for us. We know that we've been talking that one going backwards and forwards, and yeah, he had a couple of moments where he got done, but on the whole, I think Sam stood up really, really strong and and did a lot of good work on um on the game in the game.

SPEAKER_05 42:49

No, I think you're right. Um I we've we've got a things are always a bit relative. Um you sort of go go to the other side of the scrum over the last few weeks. Somebody who's come in for a little bit of criticism in in some quarters, is Alec Clary, and you think, well, hold on a second, he knows his own place in the squad, and he's probably playing a lot more than he was expecting, and he's trying to take his opportunity. But at the end of the day, he's a third or fourth choice tight head, and you've got a treatment like that. Sam Crean, exactly the same, he's probably what, five or six in the pecking order, he's just come back from a year of injury, um, and he's been thrust in for his first game of the season, I think, um, at Wellford Road. Best of luck, mate, on you go. So it's um yeah, fair play to him. Yeah, he got pinged in the scrum a couple of times, but everyone has been. Um I think it's probably worth mentioning that Mullipolo, when he came on, looked pretty solid. I mean, you may as well give him a contract until he's 50 at the moment, but yeah. Some of the some of the guys that are out there are are members of the squad that people are saying aren't worth their place in the team, but you've got to look at Things with a bit of perspective and go they're not first second choice, and they probably know they're not first second choice, they're just trying to take their opportunities. And Sam Green will be probably on the lowest wage out of anyone in that squad. So fair play to him for fronting up and doing it when it when it counts. And I think he has got a long-term place with us, really. Um you go back, probably go back to 2020. Um, in our weird end of season post-Covid, we get him relegated, everyone can have a game kind of thing. He was a walking highlight reel. Um he's been set back by a couple of injuries. So I I do hope that actually he's able to, you know, it might be this season. He has played a couple of games Amp Till, and I hopefully he'd continue to do that once we've got some some players back. And next season we might see a little bit more of him because I do think he's got something about him, and you never know, Ralph Adams Hale might have two games without injury as well.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Well, absolutely. I mean, and that again, that's the conversation for the summer, isn't it? When you look at players that are continually injured, and KP um Piffatelli is another one, isn't it? You know, he's come back from injury and within five minutes he's off the field again. You have to ask the question. Um, as much as it's a physical thing, is there a mental thing there as well that means that some players get injured? And you know, you have to question their value in that situation. The one thing I will say is I think that if any of our listeners out there who, when they saw that team being announced, looked at that and thought that we were win in with a shout of a losing bonus point and not on the end of a complete and utter thump in, you know, I think we have to be honest about it. I think everybody looks at that team, went, particularly front row, went, oh, this is gonna be a tough old afternoon. Uh, and you know, the credit to those guys. Now, let's finish up uh just to say on this on the league thing, uh side of things, two big matches coming up, one at the end of January, one in March. Um, Chiefs at home, Queens at home, they are big matches, and I think you know, win those matches that goes a long way to putting Saracens back in the in the whole um um mix-up, doesn't it, Matt?

SPEAKER_05 46:17

It does, yeah, and it is the sort of game that we do get fired up for. And yeah, and yeah, sort of the flip side to it is we've got to look at the teams that we lost to at home that we've then got to play away. Um we've got to go to Bath and we've got to go to Northampton. That's pretty tough. Um so yeah, we've got to make the most of um of home fixtures.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

Um at home as well, obviously.

SPEAKER_05 46:39

And that yeah, I mean that's that's huge, isn't it? Um and obviously against Exeter, we've we've got a demon to put to bed there, really, haven't we? So that's um that's that's a huge game. And yeah, Champions Cup, what on earth do you do about that as well? Um it's the sort of thing that we could suddenly turn up for because we see it as a bit of a a one-off shot to nothing at the moment. So yeah, there's there's a there's an interesting few weeks coming up.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Indeed, there are. I mean, it is gonna be interesting, isn't it? Well, look, we're gonna review that next week after um uh Bordeaux away, and obviously the home match against Chiefs for the women, which we encourage you all to buy your tickets. Only a tenor a ticket, come on, and you can buy car parking for a fiver, so that makes life an awful lot easier as well. 15 quid to see that top quality rugby. I uh really think you should all get along for that one, Matt, don't you?

SPEAKER_05 47:32

Yeah, or do what I did at the start of the season, and if you got a men's season to get a women's one for 30 quid, it's it's a bit of a no-brainer, isn't it? Really? I mean, the the attendance, as Joe mentioned, the attendance against Bristol and the crowd, the noise of the crowd was was fantastic. Um, and I would expect potentially the Chiefs game to be to be even better, you know, starting to get closer to 2,000 and 1,000 sitting in the uh in the East End, which is which is brilliant, really. Um long way that continue.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

Absolutely. Well, look, there we go. Uh let's end the fast cast, sorry, the fest cast here. Say thank you everybody for listening in. And uh we'll be back uh next week, which whatever date it is next week. I I should always look this up and write it down tonight, but it'll be the 17th when we're back after the Bordeaux game and the Chiefs game. So plenty to look forward to there. And uh we'll say thank you everybody for listening in. All the best and surrah.